Shaila, 15 June 2007

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Shaila for 15 June, 2007 meeting in #esp

This is a threaded version of most of the important stuff from the IRC log

a hack set of tags have been added

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Intro

<tav> http://wiki.espians.com/Where_do_we_go_from_here%2C_15_June_2007 07:03:38
<tav> so, this meeting is to decide upon the way forward 07:04:06
<tav> we are now at the end of week 4 of 24 weeks 07:04:22
<tav> so, a sixth of the way through 07:04:31
<tav> i started writing down my thoughts on http://wiki.espians.com/Where_do_we_go_from_here%2C_15_June_2007 -- please have a read 07:04:48
<tav> thoughts? comments? questions? 07:05:39
<tav> elaborating on the 3 comm channels: basically, www.24weeks.com as a wordpress blog with audioblog support for radio:24 07:06:48
<tav> wiki.espians.com as a wiki ... 07:07:04
<tav> and this irc channel... 07:07:11
<tav> the 4-weekly (is there a term for that?) iterations are intended to provide focus and a coming point 07:08:09
<guilhem> ""Iterations" every 4 weeks with a WTF at the end of it"? 07:12:40
<tav> guilhem: basically, a gathering of everyone every 4 weeks 07:13:12
<guilhem> what for? 07:13:20
<tav> what for: a) to increase awareness and get larger and larger groups coming together 07:14:05
<tav> b) to showcase the development of what's been happening in the previous 4 weeks 07:14:39
<tav> this is the whole: visioning -> design -> development 07:15:18
<tav> but, time is important -- there's a real fucking need for espra in the world right now 07:16:50

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Initial Comments

qopi agrees that only 3 commications channels is a good idea 07:08:53
qopi wonders what will happen to facebook, collectivex, espgroup 07:09:08
<tav> the googlegroup will be killed off 07:09:25
<tav> in place, a public announce-only mailman 07:09:35
<tav> which brings to the point of communication 07:09:43
<tav> the schism that occurred between the "online" and "offline" groups was terrible 07:10:19
<happyseaurchin> i would have though people can use whatever they want as extras, as long as they are linking in to the primary communication loop of irc, wiki, wordpress combo... 07:10:34
<tav> it's important that this doesn't happen again 07:10:39
<tav> so, we need people who: a) commit to relaying what's going offline to online and b) active shailing the online communication 07:11:34
<tav> i also promise to try and write more ;p 07:12:28
<tav> this might be more in a stream of consciousness style -- until i get better at it from learning from everyone 07:12:52
<happyseaurchin> tav: leave stream of consciousness to real life... we just need to have some idea what you are up to day to day, and when your current trajectory is... 07:14:09

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BDFL

<mediovia> the democracy bit makes me a bit wary of committing 07:07:30
<mediovia> but then I have no contractual committments so that's fine 07:07:41
<mediovia> so I'll continue with a responsibility free attitude, helping when I feel like it 07:08:28
<mediovia> happyseaurchin: "I am not a democrat." in http://wiki.espians.com/Where_do_we_go_from_here%2C_15_June_2007 07:08:58
<qopi> tav: trusting you does not equal thinking you as a bdfl is a good idea 07:10:43
qopi trusts tav and his intentions, but doesn't think he has learnt anything from the iterations, nor properly acknowledges how many people have got burnt in the process 07:15:15
qopi thinks that is prerequisite for moving forward in a more sustainable fashion 07:15:40
<tav> qopi: well, for me, others are already moving forward in that fashion 07:16:16
<tav> qopi: so, i'll rather go for the unrealistic whilst there's still time to do so 07:18:00

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Trust

nadine is not happy 07:10:10
<sbp> nadine: what concerns? 07:11:10
<nadine> issue of trust 07:11:28
<nadine> development of discussuion 07:11:42
<cre8radix> meaning? 07:12:01
<nadine> well ... tav is back with a plan and the demand for trust 07:13:25
<guilhem> I'm fine for trust 07:13:35
<guilhem> I mean I agree 07:13:44
<cre8radix> nadine: not good? 07:13:53
<nadine> not even asking what is ahppening 07:13:54
<nadine> no 07:14:01
<cre8radix> ah 07:14:02
magitam is very concerned that Tav might have dropped off a whole bunch of trust maps, the way he left things when he disappeared 07:17:20
<tav> going on holiday == disappearing? ;p 07:18:33
nadine is not happy with the way tav is dealing with things when he comes back either 07:18:50
<tav> nadine: i'm not dealing with anything, just declaring my intentions 07:19:06
<magitam> tav: this isn't a game, where you can just hit re-set and start again, as if nothing happened... 07:19:30
<tav> right, and want to know if that doesn't suit people and if so, why? 07:19:33
<tav> magitam: hitting reset? ;p 07:19:43
<magitam> tav: reset, reboot, same thing 07:20:57
<magitam> and agreements that have been made... 07:21:44
<magitam> without necessarily involving anyone else in the process 07:22:05
<Wardlaw> The overall recognition of promises. 07:22:15
<magitam> but then expecting others to just pick up the pieces and get stuck in 07:22:16
<Wardlaw> And frankly the completion of a promise is the basis of trust. 07:22:28
<Wardlaw> And if you are trying to identify trust - you should check to see if people have had their promises fulfilled. 07:22:54
happyseaurchin finds wardlaw's trust creation thing interesting... 07:24:02
<happyseaurchin> my trust is automatic... and when people let me down, i simply forgive, and get on with it... but i like your build of it... makes sense to me too :) 07:25:34

== Meatspace Reporting ++

<Wardlaw> Can I ask for something? 07:14:14
<Wardlaw> That everyone at Rich Mix keeps all conversation in the IRC 07:14:27
<Wardlaw> That way everyone stays informed and there are no half sentenes happening without overall access. 07:14:49
<Wardlaw> Just for the time period of this discussion. 07:15:07
<tav> Wardlaw: whilst that works for some, many people aren't technically oriented -- surely having some people commited to "relaying" works better? 07:15:45
qopi thinks Wardlaw was just talking about right now? 07:16:05
<qopi> rather than generally 07:16:10
<Wardlaw> When I mean the time of this discussion I'm talking about the next half hour to an hour. 07:16:16
<Wardlaw> It means that frank discussion can occur with the knowledge and input of others. 07:16:52
<happyseaurchin> do we get to hear from others...? what other people are doing/have been doing too? 07:17:00
<tav> Wardlaw: cool, agreed from me 07:17:05

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espra

<guilhem> WHAT IS ESPRA 07:17:16
<__t> guilhem: what can espra be. should be a answered question. 07:18:06
<tav> guilhem: a parallel public infrastructure (social, economic and technological) 07:18:15
<tav> magitam: hmz 07:18:19
<__t> by the end of the 24weeks. 07:18:21

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Leadership

<nadine> when I first got into this project I thought tav is headdingh it and in some respect leading the way 07:20:04
<nadine> i was excepting this 07:20:13
<nadine> but leadership and - tellijng which way to go further requires also delievery 07:20:48
<nadine> and that hasnÃ„t really happen or at least not in the way i was expecting it 07:21:18
<nadine> one issue here is finace 07:21:24
<nadine> when tav left I exepted this project to be less of a 'job' with a 'boss' but more a community experiment 07:22:12
<nadine> forgive me for using simpicitic temonoligyhere 07:22:26
happyseaurchin echoes community experiment :) 07:22:38
<nadine> now tav, sorry but you are coming back ... telloing us what to doi0o ... and it'S THE SAME LIKE BEFOR 07:22:48
<nadine> (oops casp wheren't intndet here 07:22:59
<nadine> but if I am putting my own time into this then this is my project too 07:23:42
<nadine> and any do as i say or leave is simply notz excaptable 07:24:01
magitam echos nadine's sentiments 07:24:27

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Stuff

<Wardlaw> Architecture TV pitch went well so the designers are happy - 1 promise fulfilled. 07:24:24
<Wardlaw> So thanks for that. 07:24:28
<Wardlaw> Happy, define interesting? 07:24:41
<tav> well, with regards to completion of promises... just got a phone call from holly, who just had a meeting with investors about architecture.tv, and they loved it =) 07:24:42
<Wardlaw> Tav, to be honest - I think thats a case of being saved by the bell. 07:25:17
<tav> Wardlaw: how so? 07:25:33
<nadine> loving it is not eaquls money in the bank 07:25:35
<guilhem> and we won't be saved by the bells for rich mix 07:25:43
<mediovia> tav: yeah, but noone who might depend on that for finance has a claim on it but you 07:25:45
<qopi> and that is, afaik, just one promise nearly half fulfilled, out of many 07:26:05
<Wardlaw> That their satisfation was not assured independently. 07:26:11
<tav> mediovia: sure, i've put over Â£40k into this project so far, most of it out of my own money 07:26:31
<Wardlaw> And to herald that as some great achievement and use it as leverage for trust and promises fulfilled is not that wise. 07:26:37
<tav> and the project hasn't made a single penny 07:26:53
<nadine> and sorry ... maybe I would have like to hera a bit about your reflections before we jump right back into 'this is what we do now' 07:26:59
<Wardlaw> Should that be applauded Tav? 07:27:04
<mediovia> tav: sure, but that's not the point, I'm not questioning your generosity or good intentions 07:27:14
<tav> but, that's a risk i've made and have been happy with it 07:27:17
<qopi> me me me 07:27:28
<guilhem> tav: we took the risk too buddy 07:27:29
qopi sighs and leaves 07:27:38
<magitam> and please lets get clear... are we or are we not here to "conduct a social experiment at open collaboration" 07:27:38
<guilhem> I'm not talking about everyone here 07:27:45
<guilhem> but lots of people 07:27:49
<tav> guilhem: well, i gave you assurances; i made it clear to all others of the lack of it and that this was a risk 07:29:28
<cre8radix> oh 07:27:51
<cre8radix> qopi's pissed? 07:27:57
<tav> Wardlaw: well, what do you mean? 07:28:17
<Wardlaw> In terms of applause? 07:28:31
<Wardlaw> Should we applaud that with 40K investment and 10K from another investor that you have sucessfully... 07:28:52
<Wardlaw> Monetised nothing. 07:28:56
<Wardlaw> Or found any way of making the project self sustaining. 07:29:08
<Wardlaw> Without infrastructure of any recognisable sort. 07:29:22
<magitam> and if "open collaboration" means, do what I tell you to do, then I'm sorry but that's not what I signed up for... 07:29:23
<tav> magitam: you didn't sign anything? ;p 07:29:34
<guilhem> tav: assurances? 07:29:55
<nadine> tav: lack of what ? 07:30:14
<magitam> tav: if you're gonna be tounge in cheek about everything, then you might as well share your grand vision, and do what you want to do... 07:30:14
<Wardlaw> Tav - you're not american. The "So sue me" attitude doesn't go down well without the accent. 07:30:20
<tav> Wardlaw: huh?? where did that come from? 07:30:36
<nadine> "So sue me" attitude?? 07:30:51
<Wardlaw> You didn't sign anything. I didn't promise anything. It can be renegotiated. 07:31:09
<tav> Wardlaw: well, that's not the intention of this project -- i've already run a successful consultancy to bring in money and am not interested in slow-paced-progress 07:30:27

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Disrespect

<magitam> and the rest of us will just carry on working as we have whilst you were in barcelona 07:30:31
<tav> magitam: who is us? ;p 07:30:54
<tav> guys, seriously, chill =) 07:31:09
<Wardlaw> Certain things that have been said by you that are flagrant disregards for peoples obligations. 07:31:30
<tav> Wardlaw: ah 07:31:34
<tav> Wardlaw: such as? 07:31:41
<magitam> tav: those people that don't think just jumping right back in to what you're suggesting is a good idea, smart, intelligent, or being responsible 07:31:44
<Wardlaw> Including recognition of contributions - and "tangible outputs". 07:31:53
<tav> magitam: right, who is that? you, Wardlaw, and nadine ? 07:32:07
<nadine> i am me not part of a we 07:32:24
<guilhem> me too 07:32:29
<guilhem> not that I don't trust you on some points dude 07:32:41
<guilhem> but I don't see how a new planning like http://wiki.espians.com/Where_do_we_go_from_here%2C_15_June_2007 is gonna help the project 07:33:01
<tav> guilhem: okay, what's wrong with that? 07:33:16
<guilhem> xcept for "Minimise communication to 3 channels (wordpress blog, this wiki, and irc)" 07:33:20
<tav> i.e. what are its weakpoints ? 07:33:27
happyseaurchin agrees with the danger of using 'we'... 07:33:28
<nadine> tav: you are just running over people 07:33:32
<tav> nadine: no... i am simply stating *my* intent -- i don't see how that affects anyone else but me 07:33:56
<Wardlaw> I see there being value in centralising communication. And from that document - I think its probably the only stand out valid point (admittedly without full time dediated review). 07:34:00
<guilhem> the first weak point is that you want to be BDFL and caracterize yourself as someone that's not democrat 07:34:12
<magitam> tav: fine, I'm not going to work with you, on this project, if that's going to be your attitude, and way of engaging with everyone 07:34:21
<magitam> everyone else is free to choose for themselves 07:34:31
<cre8radix> magitam: farhan, let's not go down that road 07:35:36
<guilhem> magitam: c'mon dude 07:34:47
<magitam> guilhem, cre8radix: I'm sorry - but I'm not going to just sit by, and waste my time... 07:36:04
<magitam> guilhem, cre8radix: if tav thinks his ideas will work - good for him 07:36:34
<magitam> guilhem, cre8radix: but if he doesn't know how to work as part of a team, I'm not going to engage in a project, that is an experiment in "open collaboration", if it takes the form of Tav's mistakes, and tav's successes 07:38:06
<magitam> guilhem, cre8radix: that doesn't represent the work that everyone has done, and doesn't respect the capacity for the group to create solutions, and make decisions... 07:39:05
<Wardlaw> I'm sorry Tav - seriously. There wasn't enough trust for you to retain. I'm happy to retain open communication but I've found a lot of your communication methods and activity a liability. 07:36:37
<nadine> the breakdown in leadership was before you left 07:36:38
<nadine> and I don't quite see how it is back yet 07:37:00
<Wardlaw> The line that bothers me is this - If you don't trust me - don't work with me. 07:37:10
<tav> magitam/wardlaw: well, we've only known each other for like 2 weeks? 07:37:06
<Wardlaw> Correct Tav. 07:37:15
<Wardlaw> So why should we trust you? 07:37:21
<Wardlaw> When your one defning action has been to leave me with little information and go on holiday. 07:37:52
<tav> because of my underlying values 07:37:36
<Wardlaw> You are the only one that suggested trust was the criteria for being part of the same project. 07:38:21
<guilhem> tav: you asked Wardlaw to be part of the project 07:37:35
<guilhem> and magitam is willing to participate 07:37:52
<guilhem> tav: you can't just tell them that you've known them for just two weeks 07:38:10
<tav> guilhem: ehm, i can't?? 07:38:28
<tav> it's the truth! i've maybe spent a maximum of 120 hours in both of their presences 07:38:53
<tav> never even had a proper chat with them 07:39:04
<guilhem> tav: no dude, you can't throw shit at people because they think that there is a problem and say it out loud while their onlu fucking intention is to help the damn project 07:39:12
<guilhem> tav: this is not the point 07:39:28
<tav> guilhem: sure, that's not my intention 07:39:29
<tav> when did i throw shit? 07:39:34
<guilhem> just right now dude 07:39:41
<tav> how? ;p 07:39:45
<Wardlaw> Tav - the document. 07:39:56
<Wardlaw> The document that you sent out Tav was very aggresive and disrespectful of a lot of people. 07:40:24
<tav> Wardlaw: okay, how was it aggressive? 07:41:15
<guilhem> when theu 07:40:23
<tav> guilhem: all i said, and let me quote: 07:40:24
<tav> -- 07:40:25
<tav> tav: magitam/wardlaw: well, we've only known each other for like 2 weeks? 07:40:26
<tav> -- 07:40:26
<Wardlaw> To initiate a discussion was unwise. 07:40:35
<guilhem> they offer to help, don't be so uncool 07:40:38
<tav> as in, *i* having *known* *them* 07:40:42
<guilhem> tav: that's being not cool 07:40:51
<tav> guilhem: mate, that's not shit throwing 07:40:53
<guilhem> hÃ©hÃ© 07:40:53
<guilhem> right 07:40:59
<guilhem> Wardlaw has been here since the begining 07:39:56
<guilhem> not just two weeks 07:40:00
<guilhem> and is efficient 07:40:03
<magitam> and yet, in two weeks, I trust everyone in this conversation, and would be willing to work with everyone - apart from you Tav 07:40:05
<sbp> magitam: including David? 07:40:22
<cre8radix> magitam: we're sorting it out now, ain't we? 07:40:09
<guilhem> and magitam is really good too 07:40:20
<guilhem> that's just saying to people "hey I don't know you that much, so what huh?" 07:41:18
<guilhem> THEY ARE PART OF THE PROJECT 07:41:33
<guilhem> and they have things to say 07:41:40
<guilhem> that's all 07:41:42
<Wardlaw> Tav - we've known of one another for a while Tav. The time frame is irrespective of contribution to you "tangible outputs". 07:41:19
<Wardlaw> It was not an open ended set of words. 07:41:40
<Wardlaw> It was a closed statement tav and a declaration of intent. 07:41:53
<magitam> sbp: I wouldn't work directly with the guy just yet... but with Sofia as a liason, yeah, I think David has valuable contributions to make... 07:41:56
<sbp> magitam: gotcha 07:42:04
<magitam> sbp: I just might not be willing to engage with him directly, given this mess things are in right now here... 07:42:23
<tav> magitam: what the fuck did i ever do to you mate? 07:42:50
<tav> i just don't get it -- what are you upset about? 07:43:09
<magitam> tav: never even had a proper chat with them?? 07:43:13
<magitam> tav: so spending till 5am in the morning, talking with you we didn't talk about anything at all, did we? 07:43:39

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tav

<tav> i can see guilhem's point -- except for the shit throwing 07:44:07
<tav> i don't see magitam's point 07:44:11
<cre8radix> so go on 07:44:42
<guilhem> "shit throwing" isn't the damn word 07:44:51
<nadine> and then maybe try again 07:44:54
<tav> magitam: quality of conversations aside, what did i do to you? 07:45:15

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Lost Thread

<__t> tav: it misses the 24weeks project 07:34:07
<__t> http://wiki.espians.com/24weeks/goals 07:34:40
<tav> __t: pls explain 07:34:50

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Payroll

<mediovia> ok, just to clear something up, I was under the impresson that some people had been led to believe that they would be able to derive a living of some sort from the project. Is that the case? 07:34:14
<mediovia> if not my concerns are alleviated 07:34:22
<guilhem> mediovia: I don't know for the others but I guess no one had that feeling from the start and ever got it^^ 07:35:35
<mediovia> guilhem: good, I feel much better then 07:36:05
<guilhem> mediovia: even though it's the only source of income for certain people ;-) 07:36:37

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tav issues

<tav> guys, the way i see it, there was a break down in: 07:35:21
<tav> * communication 07:35:24
<tav> * leadership 07:35:26
<tav> which led to lots of problems 07:35:51
<tav> all i am proposing is a way of fixing that 07:36:00
<tav> i tried to take a complete laid back approach before and hoped people would just come together and get shit done 07:36:33
<nadine> tav: people did get shit done 07:38:22
<evangineer> the completely laid back approach was a recipe for disaster, agreed... 07:39:48
<tav> evangineer: right 07:40:01
<evangineer> the problem was a lack of established process 07:40:22
<evangineer> if the right sort of processes/agreements/conventions are in place, the completely laid back approach can work 07:41:17

[edit]

BDFL 2

<Wardlaw> Your manifesto in your dictatorship. 07:42:04
<Wardlaw> However benevolent you see that. 07:42:11
<tav> Wardlaw: yes, a declaration of my intent, yes 07:42:12
<evangineer> there is a concept of leadership called superleadership, where the leader is a coach who facilitates others in the organisation to be leaders in their own right 07:42:25
<evangineer> that's about capacity-building 07:42:33
<Wardlaw> Tav - it is very much as though you have drawn a line in the sand. 07:42:36
<Wardlaw> No one ever asked for that. 07:42:44
<Wardlaw> We have all tried to be reasonable. 07:43:00
<Wardlaw> Oh Tav... 07:43:03

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Getting Personal

<evangineer> folks has this degenerated into a personal discussion? 07:43:31
happyseaurchin agrees with evangineer's warning 07:44:12
<Wardlaw> Why does it have to be a direct personal assault that offends someone? 07:43:36
<Wardlaw> No Evangineer, I don't think so. 07:43:46
<tav> evangineer: not quite... trying to figure out what individual qualms are 07:43:48
<tav> i can see nadine's point 07:43:53
<Wardlaw> I believe this is one part of what we were trying to do. 07:44:07
<Wardlaw> Set out why people were involved. 07:44:16
<Wardlaw> Tav has set his out very clearly. Not remotely delicately. And exclusive of a lot of people who have tried to assist in his percieved goals. 07:44:53
<guilhem> evangineer: it gets to personal stuff as it kinda is a real issue here 07:44:27
<guilhem> evangineer: don't ya think? 07:44:34
<nadine> can we all like ... run around the block or something 07:44:39
<happyseaurchin> it heats up because there are several people in several associated threads... there seems to be a loss of accuracy.... hence evangineer's warning... 07:45:22
guilhem virtually high fives evangineer 07:45:42
<Wardlaw> Happy and Evangineer - point taken. 07:45:47
<happyseaurchin> aha! sbp... that's what the wiki is meant to be for! 07:45:49

[edit]

Process & Structure

evangineer thinks a focus on process and structure would be helpful 07:45:19
<sbp> I'd like to know what people are tentatively thinking about their next steps 07:45:33
<guilhem> sbp: job center plus maybe^^ 07:46:00
<Wardlaw> ROOM can we be aware we are talking over one another on different issues. 07:46:02
<sbp> tav seems to be proposing a high road/low road solution. you can follow him or do something else, and either is cool. but which will people choose, based on the evidence so far? 07:46:07
<sbp> I'm also thinking that some might straggle in the middle, which would probably not be a good thing 07:46:23
<Wardlaw> Is it possible to bring that back and refocus an agenda for at least ten minutes. 07:46:31
<guilhem> high/low road huh 07:46:32
<happyseaurchin> thanks sbp... nice and clear :) 07:46:39
<cre8radix> i'm in 07:47:02
<happyseaurchin> guilhem: ehehhe 07:47:20
<sbp> guilhem: I didn't say which was high and which was low, note. nor even which is better out of high and low! :-) 07:47:31
<tav> ehm, i didn't really say high road / low road 07:47:36
<guilhem> sbp: ;-) 07:47:46
<tav> just said what i am doing -- as a free individual like everyone else =) 07:47:52
<cre8radix> hrhr 07:47:53
<sbp> yeah, sorry all if the metaphor was bad 07:47:55
<Wardlaw> sdp - the high road low road analogy is reasonable. 07:48:01
<sbp> just trying to bring in some process: that there is a choice somewhat to make 07:48:05
<happyseaurchin> yes 07:48:13
happyseaurchin nods 07:48:16
<cre8radix> choice made 07:48:22
<Wardlaw> Tav - are you a free individual or an individual who is free but with responsibilities? 07:48:23
<sbp> the discussion that's gone on so far seems to be people trying to get more information about which choice to make, at first; but then it started to turn into grievances a bit 07:48:34
<tav> Wardlaw: only responsibility i currently have is to guilhem, evangineer, GReaper and rich mix 07:48:55
<guilhem> tav: and Chris 07:49:11
<tav> guilhem: i am not abandoning what i am doing... 07:49:24
<guilhem> tav: and the World because the world Needs Espra 07:49:24
<happyseaurchin> ooooo 07:49:25
<tav> hehe 07:49:31
<tav> yes, that's what i said in http://wiki.espians.com/Where_do_we_go_from_here%2C_15_June_2007 07:49:42
<tav> i *have* to do this shit -- thought i could get away after a while 07:49:59
<tav> but i simply cannot get away -- everything in my life keeps bringing me back to it 07:50:13
<guilhem> tav: and we all told you that going away would bring changes 07:50:23
<tav> yes, it brought changes in me too 07:50:34
<cre8radix> good 07:50:39
<cre8radix> or bad? 07:50:42

[edit]

Pitches

<happyseaurchin> um... can i suggest we hear other pitches please???? 07:48:49
<happyseaurchin> can i have a second on hearing another pitch...? from magi or will or guilhem? 07:50:48
<happyseaurchin> um, can i ask tav to perhaps leave such a thing till next week... so we can get a full pitch if people are interested....? 07:51:48

[edit]

P&S 2

<thruflo> go on, what were they?! 07:50:48
<tav> okay, so, let me try and explain some thing 07:51:07
<cre8radix> drumroll 07:51:23
<tav> before, i was thinking that an emergent process would bring about an emergence empowering espra -- doing it the idealist way 07:51:37
<tav> and when i got frustrated with that i'd go very command and control style and backwards and forwards... like a headless chicken 07:52:51
<tav> likewise with technical coding... betwixt practical approach and perfectionist approach 07:53:36
<tav> in reality 07:53:40
<tav> whilst espra itself will enable emergence, it will not be brought about emergently 07:53:56
<tav> and there are enough people working on practical code that the perfectionist and empowering code needs to be done 07:54:17
<tav> so there you go thruflo, those 2 realisations and decisions are what changed 07:54:42
<happyseaurchin> i don't there is bipolar thing between emergence and the other thing... there are dynamics that deal with both... like chaord idea 07:55:13
<thruflo> so tav what's the upshot of that in terms of what you're going to do? 07:56:30
<thruflo> tav knows best?! :p 07:57:41
guilhem thanks thruflo for the question 07:56:48
<tav> thruflo: code the plexnet with a very tight development team; have a visioning process to find out what others want; have a design process to come up with daily mockups; have specific project teams 07:57:43
<guilhem> what about financing the project? 07:58:07
<salvage> guilhem:what kind of finance? 07:58:47
<thruflo> finance vs baked beans... 07:58:19
<thruflo> beans means actual things being done ;) 07:58:37
<tav> guilhem: yes, a finance team and a lifestyle team too 07:58:39
<salvage> ill go in for the design 07:58:10

[edit]

Focus

<Wardlaw> Guys - if people want to see my initial suggestion its to get the conversation back to what I considered the focus of this conversation to be about. 07:51:53
<sbp> Wardlaw: what's that? 07:52:03
<Wardlaw> And thats written on Facebook. 07:52:05
<sbp> Wardlaw: got une link, svp? 07:52:18
<Wardlaw> I'll direct people where in a moment - have to check.. 07:52:23

[edit]

wiki

<tav> alright, so, i got to go off to a meet 07:55:00
<tav> magitam and wardlaw will now pitch and debate in my absence =) 07:55:23
<Wardlaw> Can I ask someone where to post my pitch so people have public access? 07:55:47
<tav> Wardlaw: wiki ? 07:55:58
<Wardlaw> Something simpler than Wiki - is there a post thread I can direct people to? 07:56:51
<salvage> wardlaw: post it on your user page 07:56:25
<Wardlaw> Can do. 07:57:49
<Wardlaw> First thing to do get an audit of people presently involved and their expectations. 07:58:46
<Wardlaw> Its not complex - and there is already something set up to capture it. 07:59:11
<Wardlaw> Personally I don't think this is the right time to discuss this - there isn't enough focus for this to take place. 07:59:37
<happyseaurchin> um... wardlaw... i would like to suggest that we do exactly that with the wiki format, until the first platform espian is produced.... 07:59:38

[edit]

Approach

<sbp> magitam? want to take the floor? 07:56:27
<magitam> sbp: this is tav's meeting, I wouldn't dream, of trying to suggest any order or structure to his management of things... - clearly he knows best 07:57:15
<guilhem> magitam: don't take it like that dude 07:57:42
<tav> magitam: mate, i'd really like to know what the fuck i did to you. at some point.... 07:58:04
<magitam> tav: it's nothing personal, so stop thinking it is... But if you had seen what shit everyone went through in your absence, you'd understand the position I'm taking.. 07:58:50
<tav> magitam: what shit exactly? 07:59:02
<tav> guilhem excepted 07:59:09
<magitam> tav: that's not a discussion that I'm gonna have here, right now.. you've set your agenda, decided what neeeds to be done... and haven't changed a bit, from the moment you left... 07:59:54
<magitam> tav: if you think that approach will work for what you want to do, you're welcome to it... that's not what I engaged with from the start, and it's clearly been my mistake to think the aim was to learn to work with people on an equal basis 08:00:46
<magitam> online and offline 08:01:01
<happyseaurchin> man... i know exactly how to work with people on an equal basis.... 08:01:09

[edit]

Who & What

sbp listens to Wardlaw 07:59:42
<sbp> ah 07:59:47
tav listens to Wardlaw too 07:59:54
<Wardlaw> Happy - Sbp fine. 07:59:58
<cre8radix> wardlaw? 07:59:59
<Wardlaw> Fine. 08:00:10
<sbp> Wardlaw: well a few of us are listening! 08:00:12
<Wardlaw> If we an establish who people are. 08:00:22
<Wardlaw> What they are capable of. 08:00:27
<salvage> Wardlaw: who are you, where are you and what do you capable of? 08:01:12
<Wardlaw> Then establish some potential clients that are interested in a "defined" grander vision - and see if there are less elaborate monetised applications they may be interested in. 08:01:24
<Wardlaw> Salvage - touche. 08:01:33
<Wardlaw> Doing exactly that - identifying who, what, where and when. 08:01:58
happyseaurchin laughs with wardlaw and salvage ;) 08:01:58
<Wardlaw> Taking a snapshot of what is happening right now. 08:02:06
guilhem slaps salvage's butt 08:02:06
<salvage> well said wardlaw 08:02:17
<cre8radix> guilhem: ! 08:02:17
<happyseaurchin> this can't be done exactly.... it is an experiment, and we are all exploring... 08:02:19
<Wardlaw> For the best part of a week and a half I've been trying to establish facts. 08:02:22
<happyseaurchin> we need precision though.... 08:02:28
<Wardlaw> Happy - I agree... its in flux. 08:02:37
<happyseaurchin> and i have been establishing depths.... 08:02:38
<Wardlaw> But a core understanding is needed e.g - Salvage doesn't know who I am. 08:02:51
<Wardlaw> Why? 08:02:52
<Wardlaw> Because I haven't stated a profile anywhere but facebook. 08:03:05
<happyseaurchin> because we aren't sharing our info in the same place... hence the WIKI!!! 08:03:08
<Wardlaw> Neither does he know how I've engaged. 08:03:14
<Wardlaw> Happy - I agree. 08:03:20
<happyseaurchin> exactly, that's beeen my problem too, though i have been asking to meet people..... 08:03:31
<tav> hehe 08:03:36
<Wardlaw> And that is here now - and that is the result of a long period of scattered communication. 08:03:38
<happyseaurchin> yes agreed 08:03:45
<Wardlaw> Hence Tav - I agree with you on centralising communication. 08:03:50
<salvage> agreed 08:03:54
<Wardlaw> Getting it coming from one source and feeding into one source. 08:04:01
<happyseaurchin> hence, i went ahead with trying out a new wayof using a wiki... which has been confusing a little to some because it is rather different... 08:04:13
<Wardlaw> But its something that you've been a hinderence too on a lot of levels. 08:04:14
<tav> Wardlaw: cool, look forward to finding out the rest, post rich mix meet -- cya all in about an hour 08:04:27
<Wardlaw> Due to declarations of intent to different people - lack of clarity and a claim of authorist. 08:04:33
<happyseaurchin> i'd like to propose that we use the wiki in an experiment... we all do... and after a week we get to see if it is useful for us.... 08:04:54
<Wardlaw> I am attending the Rich Mix meeting with Tav. 08:04:59
<salvage> well said (sorry for all the cheers) 08:05:00
<Wardlaw> I shall send an email to mamading - If that can be posted - that is my initial suggestion. 08:05:20
<Wardlaw> You'll be able to see it where he posts it. 08:05:29
evangineer looks for the mail 08:05:48
<cre8radix> evangineer: got it? 08:07:37
<cre8radix> posted it? 08:07:41
cre8radix is anxious 08:08:18
<evangineer> not yet, cre8radix 08:08:20
cre8radix is running in circles 08:08:43
<happyseaurchin> hmmm... no other pitch for now then? 08:05:52
<happyseaurchin> well... that went down well... 08:07:16

[edit]

Qualms

<tav> so, guys, whilst i'm gone, would really like to have a condensed version of what people have qualms about 08:07:33
<tav> facts-based kinda thing 08:07:59
<guilhem> look 08:10:49
<guilhem> he wants a list of qualms 08:11:01
<guilhem> (is that claims?) 08:11:06
<guilhem> anyway 08:11:08
<mediovia> guilhem: qualms are issues 08:11:20
<guilhem> I'm gonna write right now what I think this project should head to 08:11:26
<guilhem> and I won't follow http://wiki.espians.com/Key_People 's model 08:11:39

[edit]

Leadership

<tav> magitam: can you please compile this? 08:08:05
<magitam> tav: yeah, like crap I'm going to do anything more... 08:08:38
<tav> lol 08:08:46
<magitam> tav: you want something - you do it yourself 08:08:54
<tav> man, you need to relax 08:08:58
<cre8radix> oh shit 08:09:07
<cre8radix> relaxxx? 08:09:11
<cre8radix> hrhr 08:09:15
<cre8radix> i'm chilled but don't want magitam to leave 08:09:37
<guilhem> magitam can't leave 08:09:47
<magitam> guilhem: I don't have to leave, and I can work with Tav, just as I work with David Pinto 08:10:38
<magitam> from a distance, with intemediaries... 08:10:49
<magitam> guilhem: how is asking for what he wants any different from any other demands tav makes? 08:11:37
<guilhem> tav ino can be what he wants but not the leader 08:11:56
<guilhem> this is what I think 08:12:32
<guilhem> and I am ready (me me me as qopi would say^^) to leave the project if people think that this http://wiki.espians.com/Key_People is how the project works 08:13:03
<guilhem> tav is a great guy but is not the leader 08:13:28
<guilhem> that's all 08:13:30
<mediovia> wow, erm why? Did he mean that page? 08:14:16
<cre8radix> well..."Tav Ino, Leader" 08:14:49
<cre8radix> guess that's what he meant 08:15:04
<mediovia> Oh, heh 08:15:23
<__t> the important lines 08:15:28
<__t> between 24weeks-project and esp 08:15:28
<__t> between espra (a plattform/network/software) and Plexnet/kalati 08:15:28
<__t>> 08:15:28
cre8radix is reading between them 08:15:49
<cre8radix> says --------------- 08:15:58
<cre8radix> pending 08:16:06
<__t> the 24weeks project is a idea... a slogan... a mindset 08:16:10
<happyseaurchin> i think leader ian't a good word 08:16:10
<guilhem> right __t 08:16:49
<guilhem> it is 08:16:52
<guilhem> I can't tolerate phrases like "I shall be remaining as BDFL. Sorry if this upsets you. I am not a democrat. If you do not trust me, do not work with me." 08:17:33
<guilhem> I am sorry about that 08:17:38
<guilhem> I know that tav will be pissed off by what I said minutes ago 08:18:08
<cre8radix> it can't be serious 08:18:12
<guilhem> it is man 08:18:20
<nadine> yes, why didn't we meet in the #24weeks 08:16:58
<nadine> ? 08:17:00
<cre8radix> we are 08:17:08
<cre8radix> hrhr 08:17:09
<magitam> because this is Tav's meeting 08:17:11
<magitam> and tav wanted it in esp 08:17:18
<guilhem> he is a control freak 08:18:27
cre8radix is only laughing about statements like this 08:18:43
<guilhem> who wouldn't be 08:19:12
cre8radix thinks it should be 08:19:30
<cre8radix> taken as a joke 08:19:42
<cre8radix> or at least as a ;) 08:19:49

[edit]

esp vs 24weeks

<guilhem> I would really like people to stop talking about esp 08:16:13
<guilhem> 24 weeks is NOT esp 08:16:20
<__t> guilhem: ok but this here is the #esp channel 08:16:38
<guilhem> it's an esp initiative 08:16:45
<cre8radix> esp's involved with it tho 08:16:48
<cre8radix> aight 08:16:53
<guilhem> but espra won't be built under esp's dictatorship 08:17:09
<__t> guilhem: but maybe can esp create somting which helps to create "*" whihch fullfills the vision of espra (24concepts) ... maybe not 08:18:23
<nadine> guilhem: i understand where you are at 08:18:24
<guilhem> __t: 24 weeks can 08:18:39
<guilhem> not esp 08:18:41
<__t> 24 weeks itself can deliver nothing ... its and idea of bringing together people and organisations ... and they can deliver something 08:19:55
<guilhem> happyseaurchin: http://wiki.espians.com/Where_do_we_go_from_here%2C_15_June_2007 08:20:00
<guilhem> okay __t 08:20:17
<__t> http://wiki.espians.com/24weeks/goals 08:20:31
<guilhem> but __t , 24 weeks has to find finances, agreed? 08:20:31
<cre8radix> agreed 08:20:38
<guilhem> WHERE ARE THE FUNDS GOING WHEN THEY COME IN? 08:20:49
<__t> guilhem: i disagree again 08:20:56
<guilhem> why? 08:21:06
<__t> people should try get finances and using the 24weeks umbrella to get resources. 08:21:34
<__t> and also to share it 08:21:45
<magitam> --t: I agree with you completely 08:21:53
<guilhem> __t: what do you mean? 08:22:25
<magitam> but with esp Metanational LLP the only legal entity, and with Tav being the only one who had access to the funds, I don't think anyone wants to necessarily use the existing vehicle as a way of managing anything further, financially at least 08:22:44
<guilhem> especially when he declares him the undemocratic leader 08:23:14
<salvage> access to funds!? in picos? 08:23:18
<sbp> pecus... 08:23:40
<__t> like farhan is doing some job and within the 24weeksproject he is showing us what he is doing and maybe putting the work he does within the espradevelopment. and maybe also he is putting some money from that job into furniture for richmixriva or food for t 08:23:42
<guilhem> __t: explain me the ""people should try get finances and using the 24weeks umbrella to get resources." please 08:23:47
<guilhem> k 08:23:50
<guilhem> ok __t 08:24:00
<guilhem> so let me put it that way 08:24:09
<guilhem> I don't have any income 08:24:17
<guilhem> except from esp's 08:24:23
<happyseaurchin> i agree, __t... i thought that's the way to do it... but we do need co-ordination... with no management.... 08:24:36
<guilhem> which means that I'm in the crappiest financial situation ever 08:24:39
<__t> and by having such examples organisations can start to develop a framework of people/software and contracts to create "espra" 08:24:53
<magitam> so guilhem: I think __t means, nobody should do this project, with any kind of financial commitment 08:25:08
<guilhem> andI should put all the time I have in that project, even bring pieces to it (all my time isn't enough) like cash or other contribution? 08:25:20
<guilhem> ok magitam 08:25:29
<magitam> from the project itself 08:25:29
<guilhem> so good news everyone 08:25:39
<magitam> cre8radix: that's no fun! 08:25:41
<guilhem> I am leaving this "riva" to go to the closest job center plus 08:26:01
<guilhem> I heard on tv that it works well as a social model 08:26:16
<magitam> guilhem: perhaps you don't need to... 08:26:28
<salvage> guilhem: buy a lottery ticket on the way 08:26:38
<guilhem> salvage, magitam, you both are right 08:27:08
<__t> guilhem: no, there is a company called ESP and within that their (or we) have our own rules. 08:27:24
<guilhem> ok __t 08:27:35
<salvage> _t: there are no fucking rules 08:27:49
<__t> but i think it is really important to stop mixing this.. 08:27:54
<guilhem> but the project started with (it's written) the idea that a new company was to be created 08:27:55
<magitam> guilhem: if we can bring money in to cover basic living expenses, we have a chance of being able to get something done in a sustainable way 08:27:59
<guilhem> and if you want to believe all the transparency bullshit we've all been hearing, we'd better do so 08:28:20
<__t> guilhem: this will be entity but: 08:28:29
<__t> dont think on that like bmw, microsoft, google think more of copycan / bountysource or a chamber of commerce to a guild of people which like to work together over the border and nations and within trusted enviroment. (which dont have to be the whole of the workers just the immidiate collegues) but supporting this by a legal body espra and a toolset,software espra which is used by people which call themselves espian workers sometimes (mostly when the 08:28:41
<__t> * <-- espra 08:28:59
<__t> not esp 08:29:10
<guilhem> ok 08:29:15
<__t> and not 24weeks 08:29:29
<cre8radix> follow the lieder 08:29:30
<guilhem> so let's launch the espra company asap dude 08:29:33
<guilhem> I didn't say that there would be a 24 weeks company 08:29:49
<guilhem> but we need a company for espra 08:30:04
<guilhem> and nothin' has been done so far for that 08:30:15
<guilhem> and nothin' will be done 08:30:22
<guilhem> and tav will keep the control 08:30:27
<magitam> guilhem: as long as Tav doesn't do the accounts 08:30:37
<guilhem> and we know what's gonna happen right? 08:30:38
<guilhem> esp's tav's baby 08:30:53
<magitam> and everything is openly published, and available for everyone to see... 08:30:55
<guilhem> I won't touch it 08:30:58
<guilhem> but espra is everyone's baby 08:31:06
<salvage> i predict that we will endure 20 or so weeks of chaos... then wake up to espra 08:31:42
<__t> i see espra as a legal entity is needed when espra has a visible face (in terms of organisations which would like to work in it and there is a not-alpha plattform) 08:32:12
<guilhem> __t: the team is here 08:32:31
<sbp> salvage: heh, that would be funny. if we invented espra by accident 08:32:35
<salvage> holding off espra untill the platform built is stupid... its content that matters, nothing else 08:32:46
<cre8radix> espra invented us 08:33:15
<salvage> sbp: it wont be no accident, it will be some html, ajax and people with content 08:33:19
<cre8radix> hrhr 08:33:30

[edit]

wiki naming conventions

<sbp> "usecasescenariodocumentsdiscussionspecificationimplenetationuses" 08:20:51
<salvage> sbp: nocamelcase! 08:22:16
<sbp> salvage: hehe 08:22:21
<magitam> sbp: none of that will matter to a client, if they happen to want something specific, that also happens to be part of what the collaborative system would do.. 08:23:45
<sbp> magitam: none of what will matter to a client? 08:24:03
<magitam> sbp: usecasescenariodocumentsdiscussionspecificationimplenetationuses 08:24:15
<sbp> magitam: oh, sorry, I was just quoting it because it's a fine example of one of __t's awesome Germanic longcompoundnouns 08:24:40
<sbp> (from http://wiki.espians.com/24weeks/goals) 08:24:56

[edit]

multiple simultaneous threads

<evangineer> I've just forwarded will's email 08:25:25
<cre8radix> can we have one issue at a time? 08:25:29
<cre8radix> evangineer: thx 08:25:40
<cre8radix> hrhrhr 08:25:44
<cre8radix> how's the weather? 08:26:04
<magitam> many people talking at the same time!! makes for more confusion! and many things get discussed too!! 08:26:06
<cre8radix> NO 08:27:17
<cre8radix> I'M RIGHT! 08:27:24
<cre8radix> ;) 08:27:27
<sbp> cre8radix is indeed righter than both salvage and magitam 08:27:35
<sbp> I don't, however, know what about 08:27:44
<cre8radix> i'm like your average right wing radical 08:28:06
<cre8radix> hrhr 08:28:10
<cre8radix> sbp: about you! 08:28:21
<magitam> cre8radix: are you trying to do a Tav?? And tell everyone what to do?? 08:28:39
<cre8radix> magitam: hrhr 08:29:08

[edit]

espra

<salvage> nto all the bollucks about ultimate platforms 08:33:47
<__t> guilhem: hopefully its just 0.01 % of the users of espra 08:34:00
<magitam> salvage: I agree completely 08:34:03
<sbp> like espra.music or Tomanr? 08:34:07
<sbp> those things won't get worked on if we go The Tav Way 08:34:15
<magitam> sbp: already, we could possibly piggy back off the work that everyone has already done... 08:34:38
<magitam> I know everyone has side projects... 08:34:43
<salvage> so join me, sit back, lets see Tav do the BDFL thing, its not that i dont trust him, its his system 08:34:44
<salvage> sbp: yes 08:34:57
<magitam> if we start to actively integrate the pieces that everyone has already been working on... 08:35:03
<sbp> magitam: yeah, but they mightn't all the leveragable in the same direction 08:35:05
<magitam> within this community, we have enough to be able to do a lot together... 08:35:19
<cre8radix> ya 08:35:39
<magitam> sbp: well the more flexible and adaptable we make the system, the easier it might be to find how we might integrate with different things 08:35:54
<sbp> I dunno. I think it might be better to focus on a single thing 08:36:30
<salvage> have the folks he stated their capblties 08:36:34
<salvage> or should i set up a page 08:36:54
<sbp> the "umbrella" idea is very Tav-like 08:36:39
<magitam> using a modular approach, and integrating chunks at a time... 08:36:53
<sbp> sure. Tomanr itself is modular 08:37:02
<sbp> start with a reviews site 08:37:06
<sbp> add trust network 08:37:09
<happyseaurchin> yes... we need multiple target/growth.. and as we progress so we conjoin... that is, if we are using process, we confluence... 08:37:10
<sbp> add anonymity... 08:37:13
<happyseaurchin> it's fluid guys... 08:37:29
<sbp> I'm not entirely sure I'd like to work on it though. heh 08:37:30
<sbp> I'd probably have voted for evangineer's thing 08:37:44
<magitam> it myy mean re-writing code, and existing systems, and tools, to fit a little with each other... but I'm sure with the skills and interest in the 60 odd espian people in this community, we could make something that engages everyone, and is practical, and works 08:38:00
<sbp> alas! evangineer and mediovia didn't finish their project proposals 08:38:10
<sbp> and I have a feeling that this will prove too much of a distraction for them to finish them 08:38:23
<mediovia> yeah, I got bored thinking about it and thought that if there was one thing more difficult than working on thingd you find boring, it's forcing yourself to think about things you find boring 08:39:13
<sbp> evangineer: aw man. no more bottlewashing? 08:39:14
<sbp> mediovia: hehe 08:39:34
<sbp> such is Web 2.0 08:39:40
<mediovia> indeed 08:39:46

[edit]

cooler

evangineer will do his writeup of CommENG this weekend promise 08:41:42
<cre8radix> evangineer: no we then 08:42:31
<cre8radix> we=weekend 08:43:00
<sbp> evangineer: ooh, awesome 08:42:08
<sbp> I... I thought you were taking this weekend off? :-) 08:42:20
evangineer is going to take the weekend off from rich mix 08:42:28
<sbp> ahh 08:42:33
<cre8radix> evangineer: can ya create an audiofile? 08:43:47
<cre8radix> please? 08:43:53
<cre8radix> pretty please? 08:43:59
<cre8radix> pretty please with sugar on top? 08:44:07
<evangineer> cre8radix: of the commeng stuff? 08:44:17
<cre8radix> yeah 08:44:26
<evangineer> 'k 08:44:31
<cre8radix> kewl 08:44:37
<evangineer> that could be fun actually 08:44:37
<cre8radix> yayaya 08:44:42
<cre8radix> evangineer: ;) 08:44:51
<sbp> written proposal first though? 08:44:57
guilhem thinks cre8radix suxx 08:44:58
<evangineer> sbp: natch 08:45:06
<sbp> guilhem: aw, and after he licked your asshole... 08:45:25
<guilhem> exactly 08:45:32
guilhem loves sbp 08:45:46
<happyseaurchin> ho hum 08:45:51
guilhem is hostile against cre8radix 08:46:06
guilhem is french 08:46:16
guilhem thinks that french people don't like german people 08:46:26
<sbp> ah, right! 08:46:27
<sbp> MAGINOT LINE 08:46:40
<cre8radix> guilhem is a serbo-croatian sarkozy clone! 08:46:48
guilhem is 08:46:53
<sbp> SARKO 08:46:55
<guilhem> that is correct 08:46:57
<cre8radix> hrhr 08:46:59

[edit]

qualms 2

<salvage> whose writing the qualms? 08:41:23
<sbp> qualms? come on, we've been firing qualms at his head for an hour and a bit 08:41:48
<magitam> please... if we start "writing" qualms, we're going to just start going backwards, and never stop... 08:41:59
<sbp> if that wasn't enough for them to sink in, I don't know what is 08:42:02
<magitam> then Tav's going to come up with excuses, reasons, or explanations for everything, and think everything's fixed, or sorted 08:42:32
<magitam> and so he repeats his behaviour 08:42:51
<magitam> I'm so not interested in doing any of that - at all... 08:43:16
<sbp> "Tav hit the group with his pitch... and haven't heard other proposals, and nonone wants to hear about the wiki solution..." - happyseaurchin's summary of the meeting so far 08:46:10
<happyseaurchin> hehehhe feel free to write your summaries 08:46:43
<happyseaurchin> note there is a link to tav's plan 08:47:02
<happyseaurchin> with the person-centred thing, rather than knowledge-based, it should be ok... 08:48:25
<happyseaurchin> it's a different head set 08:48:31
<happyseaurchin> people ahve ot try it to see if it works! 08:48:50

[edit]

wiki admin

<magitam> sbp: I'm weary of using the wiki for anything anymore... since if it's not what Tav wants it to be, he just goes ahead and deletes things, or removes them, without even opening up a discussion about it.. 08:47:03
<sbp> magitam: does he? he's not even an admin! 08:47:28
<sbp> he asked me to give him adminship, but I haven't yet 08:47:43
<happyseaurchin> well... my guess is, he won't from now... at least, i think i'll crap on his head if he does.... 08:47:46
<sbp> anyone can edit the wiki 08:47:58
<cre8radix> right 08:48:03
<happyseaurchin> exactly... 08:48:09
<magitam> sbp: someone did... 08:49:53
<happyseaurchin> i could watching gotan project.. and here i am... listening to people complain.... 08:49:59
<sbp> magitam: no, only GReaper and sbp are listed as admins in http://wiki.espians.com/Special:Listusers 08:51:03
<magitam> sbp: someone has gone and deleted the discussion page that was about the website at http://wiki.espians.com/WebsiteSetup 08:51:35
<sbp> magitam: oh yeah, that was me. see the change comment for why 08:51:52
<magitam> sbp: there isn't a change comment though... 08:52:12
<magitam> the page has just been deleted, and it's started as fresh 08:52:28
<sbp> (Deletion log); 08:17 . . Sbp (Talk | contribs | block) (deleted "WebsiteSetup": Requested by Tav; voting finished on Wednesday; and the turnout was pretty underwhelming. Scribble on User_Talk:Sbp to request this page be restored or to be sent the old content!) 08:52:38
<sbp> deletions are noted in http://wiki.espians.com/Special:Log/delete 08:52:50
<sbp> as well as in Special:Recentchanges 08:52:57
<sbp> (click "500" to see it, since it was a while ago now) 08:53:05
<salvage_> we need archives 08:53:07
<sbp> I was going to archive it somewhere or somehow, but I didn't know where. suggestions welcome! 08:53:28
<magitam> sbp: since Tav wasn't in the discussion, or part of that conversation, having him request the page disappear, doesn't seem very appropriate 08:54:16
<sbp> he requested, but I assessed. just in case I assesed wrong, I left the rationale and the feedback link 08:54:42
<sbp> do you want it restored, or moved, or to be sent the old content? 08:55:00
<salvage_> its part of my larger idea for adopting WP;XYZ 08:55:02
<salvage_> it should be archived into bulletins by date and templated 08:55:26
<sbp> magitam: the larger context is that he'd said that 24weeks.com was going to use wordpress. since he owns the domain and server, as far as I can tell, that made the page rather redundant; not that anybody had invested much in it anyway 08:57:05
<sbp> (including me as a guilty party; I forgot to vote!) 08:57:05
<sbp> (but then, it turns out it would've been wasted time anyway) 08:57:05
<sbp> magitam: so again, do you have a specific administrative request to make in light of my rationale? do you think I made the wrong assessment; and if so, how would you like me to fix it? I'm here right now 08:57:54
<happyseaurchin> um... can we talk now... might be useful.. proactive... positive... constructive...:) 08:57:56
<magitam> sbp: it's fine 08:58:02
sbp nods 08:58:07
<magitam> sbp: right now, I'm not going to put any more energy or attention into what Tav decides or does... 08:58:22
<sbp> okay, but don't ignore the fact that Tav has control over some of the project resources and probably some of the mindshare of the participants 08:58:55
<sbp> i.e., don't ostrich! :-) 08:59:06
<magitam> sbp: of course not... 08:59:15

[edit]

misc

guilhem informs everyone that he lives rich mix 08:56:24
guilhem is happy to see that nothin' really got out of that meeting 08:57:05
<nadine> happyseaurchin: no, i am busy reading backlogs in this channel 08:57:13
<nadine> i am somewhere about an hourr ago 08:57:35
<nadine> don't know how that happend 08:57:43
<nadine> failed multitalking 08:57:48

[edit]

Who & What 2

<sbp> I've been asking what everybody else is going to do... I'm very interested 09:00:16
<sbp> I notice that nobody's asked me what I'm going to do 09:00:22
<sbp> is nobody really thinking about doing things at the moment? 09:00:36
<sbp> in too much shock? 09:00:47
<cre8radix> no 09:00:53
<sbp> what are YOU doing to do, cre8radix? :-) 09:01:02
<cre8radix> i'm actually working on the next episode 09:01:07
<sbp> except for lick guilhem's asshole. we know you're gonna do ze lickin' 09:01:16
<sbp> oh, cool. yeah, I guess I should've figured that 09:01:27
<sbp> since you asked evangineer for the audio 09:01:33
<cre8radix> nah man, the french are doing da lix 09:02:00
cre8radix is kickin' 09:02:17
<cre8radix> wtf is radio:24 gonna talk about for the last two weeks? 09:10:14
<cre8radix> it might just be enough for a single episode 09:10:28
<sbp> cre8radix: Day in the Life of Tav in Barcelona? (ADULTXXX ONLY) 09:11:07
<cre8radix> hrhr 09:11:15
<cre8radix> lol 09:11:34
<salvage_> sbp: you ever been to barc? its not a place young english gentleman get laid with the locals, or even with their female cohorts 09:12:08
<cre8radix> sbp: i got some funny sounds on the dorkbot espisode...you'll love it! 09:18:15
<cre8radix> ;/ 09:18:17
<cre8radix> :P 09:18:24
<sbp> radsome 09:19:09

[edit]

wiki dumps

<happyseaurchin> well... if we did the wiki thing, then we'd all know what everyone else is doing.... without having to have these endless spiralling discussions that seem to piss people off... 09:02:36
happyseaurchin ends his rant 09:02:49
<sbp> happyseaurchin: CRAM IT ABOUT THE WIKI ASSHEAD. WE ARE NOT PISSED OFF 09:02:56
<sbp> :-) 09:03:09
<cre8radix> hrhr 09:03:17
<cre8radix> lol 09:03:19
<happyseaurchin> uhu 09:03:24
<sbp> hÃ»hÃ» 09:03:31
<sbp> note that the wiki has those dumps 09:03:44
<sbp> has those dumps: so any bytes invested in it are archivable and recoverable. they won't be wasted bytes 09:04:13
<sbp> even deleted pages, as far as I know, but I'll have to check that out 09:04:22
<sbp> I *hope* including deleted pages, otherwise I'm going to be taking a spanner to MediaWiki 09:04:37
<happyseaurchin> blaaa... it's an experiment in communication... doesn't work if only one party is using it :( 09:04:37
<sbp> yeah, I was just kidding 09:04:57

[edit]

rich mid -> irc

<happyseaurchin> so... you are privy to the audio in the room i am in... is that right? 09:03:39
<sbp> happyseaurchin: privy to the audio? no? 09:03:56
<happyseaurchin> well, if you were, you might be able to detect that some people are pissed off... 09:04:12

[edit]

Who & What 3

<mediovia> sbp, I'm very interested in what you and others are going to do 09:05:08
<sbp> [[[ 09:05:19
<sbp> (aside: the rest of http://wiki.espians.com/Where_do_we_go_from_here%2C_15_June_2007 09:05:20
<sbp> is a largely a load of nonsense imho) 09:05:20
<sbp> ]]] - Josef (hehe) 09:05:23
<mediovia> I thought I made myself fairly clear when i was on about commitment earlier 09:05:25
<mediovia> whoo that was close 09:05:34
<sbp> mediovia: yeah, I like the responsibility free attitude 09:06:02
<sbp> well avoided on the ass deeleying 09:06:19
<mediovia> I thought that might've been the middle road though 09:06:36
<mediovia> that was luck 09:06:45
<sbp> well, here's something I said to magitam in Ye Backchannel earlier: 09:07:42
<sbp> 16:07 <sbp> right. well, I did say from the beginning: archive things, maximise peripheral benefits, don't have too high a vested interest, impart cloo, look at how the project is being managed. etc. 09:07:48
<sbp> 16:08 <sbp> I think that at this point, those are looking like good things to have gambled on? no? 09:07:48
<sbp> 16:08 <sbp> who's happiest here? :-) 09:07:48
<sbp> 16:08 <sbp> QED 09:07:48
<cre8radix> ye backchannel...lol 09:07:55
<cre8radix> ye olde sbp 09:08:02
<sbp> hweat, myn cre8radixliche freund! ich shall tell thee a tale 09:08:22
<sbp> er, hwÃ¦t even 09:08:40
<cre8radix> hrhr 09:09:06
<mediovia> yep, quite clear 09:09:25

[edit]

happy

<happyseaurchin> i was hoping with our discussion earlier we could at least try something together, as a collective, to improve communication other than this letterbox irc thing.... i did try to set it up in the wiki wrt this discussion.... 09:05:58

[edit]

chaos

<sbp> one of the problems in the last couple of weeks has been that it's been so chaotic and fractalate that it's been impossible to speak about process or get anything going really at all. the best ray of hope was Salfield's suggestion and those Project proposals 09:09:38
<mediovia> asbsolutely clear in fact 09:09:49
<cre8radix> tell me about it 09:09:52
<mediovia> I agree and have a project proposal in 10 mins 09:10:06
<sbp> awesome 09:10:16
<evangineer> sbp: did you see the circle page I created on the wiki. I raised the issue of process within the circle 09:11:16
<salvage_> espisode 09:11:16
<sbp> evangineer: ah, I only skimmed it. I'll read it again now! 09:11:29
<sbp> oh, it's got person-headings now 09:12:19
<sbp> salvage_: if you're going to have faith in tav in any one single thing... 09:12:36
<sbp> the person-headings help a lot. a lot more than the rename to "Bulletin" 09:12:49
<sbp> Circle was a lot more redolent. oh well 09:13:02
<sbp> evangineer: in your outline, it seems like we were missing each of the "LOAM" elements 09:14:04

Retrieved from "http://wiki.espians.com/Shaila%2C_15_June_2007"

Shaila, 15 June 2007

From espians

Contents

Shaila for 15 June, 2007 meeting in #esp

Intro

Initial Comments

BDFL

Trust

espra

Leadership

Stuff

Disrespect

tav

Lost Thread

Payroll

tav issues

BDFL 2

Getting Personal

Process & Structure

Pitches

P&S 2

Focus

wiki

Approach

Who & What

Qualms

Leadership

esp vs 24weeks

wiki naming conventions

multiple simultaneous threads

espra

cooler

qualms 2

wiki admin

misc

Who & What 2

wiki dumps

rich mid -> irc

Who & What 3

happy

chaos

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