Shaila, 21 June 2006
From espians
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The Team Of Total Awesomenesses Shaila
- Info: See <http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp-core/latest> for introductory docs.
- Author: Jeffry Archambeault (jeffarch) <jjarchambeault@gmail.com>
- Date: $Date: 2006-06-22 21:30:00 +0100 (Thu, 22 Jun 2006) $
- Revision: $Revision: 0001 $
- Description: Summary of daily #esp-core IRC logs
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Shaila Meta-Stuff
References
_devplan: http://www.espians.com/espra/devplan.html document covers the details.
_devtasks: http://www.largeblue.com/_space/first_run_through.txt
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#esp-core Summary
[Business Contracts]
- <tav> thruflo: what you make of that mail from dla piper ? 04:12:55 - <thruflo> tis good i think 04:13:14 - <tav> where's the catch me thinks 04:14:02 - <thruflo> cheaper than expected 04:14:06 - <thruflo> am about to ask for more feedback on that doc - i think it needs a fair bit more work 04:14:26 - <thruflo> tav: remember that louise t blouin thing to set them up with some hosting 04:15:41 - <thruflo> hang on - mtg w greenpeace brb - <thruflo> hey tav back: so I've promised to set them up with hosting, they want to host 2 sites now; will be very light in storage and bandwidth requirements; need to set up sftp access separately for the different sites; one is all static client side code; one requires php mysql and a gui for mysql 04:46:24 - <thruflo> don't have any domain details yet - should I ask for info or provide it?! 04:47:24 - <thruflo> and can we agree some figures and timescales 04:47:49 - <tav> thruflo: what were you thinking in that regard ? 05:10:21 - <tav> alrighty gang 05:13:33 - <tav> what do you all think about launching the green.tv community system + fundraiser for monday ? 05:13:52 - <thruflo> "tav: what do you all think about launching the green.tv community system + fundraiser for monday?" - yeah! 05:45:59 - <jeffarch> what do you mean by "launch"? ;)
...
- <tav> we got the nokia deal btw 16:55:34 - <tav> w00p! =) 16:55:38 - <jeffarch> tav: what's the nokia deal? 17:02:26 - <tav> jeffarch: doing an intranet for nokia csr (corporate social responsibility) -- justifies doing the community-related aspects of the development ;p
[Business Structure]
[Business Accounting]
[Development Timeline]
[Development Tasks]
Chomping at the bit...
- <possumman> hmz. There must be some way to get the code online. can't tav email a tar-ball to GReaper or something? 15:49:26 - <GReaper> hmmm? 15:49:36 - <possumman> well if tav doesn't have time to deal with the code, can't he at least email it to someone else? 15:50:20 - <GReaper> what's wrong, exactly? 15:51:09 - <possumman> well, i'm under the impression that the code isn't yet available online 15:51:31 - <GReaper> subversion has been up for days 15:52:01 - <GReaper> theres no excuse 15:52:05 - <possumman> Yes, so I'm furthermore under the impression that tav doesn't have the time to commit it to subversion. 15:52:47 - <possumman> So I'm wondering why he can't email it to someone else, who can then commit it. 15:53:07 - <possumman> of course this question is really meant to be directed at tav, who isn't even online. 15:53:27 - <sbp> possumman: now that I'm able to get a user account, this responsibility shifts a bit more towards me 15:53:49 - <sbp> though I have the suspicion that the code is not on qin 15:53:59 - <oierw> tav is just a phone call away 15:54:08 - <sbp> hence I'll not be able to do anything about it, so your point will indeed stand 15:54:09 - <possumman> oierw: do you have a phone number 15:54:29 - <sbp> best thing is not to stress it 15:58:56 - <sbp> tav has deadlines, we do not 15:59:01 - <possumman> salfield: you have some protoplex code, it says higher up in the logs? 15:59:08 - <oierw> i'm pretty sure they are going to stay seperate 15:59:10 - <sbp> and I'm pretty sure we're merging them! :-) 15:59:21 - <sbp> tav and I discussed it a couple of days ago and he seemed unsure 15:59:33 - <oierw> okay then 15:59:57 - <sbp> see the 2nd Shaila under [Development Tasks] 15:59:57 - <possumman> I think we're integrating greentv and protoplex for now, and later on (or perhaps as a longterm subproject) Kalati will be merged with protoplex in some fashion. 16:00:11 - <sbp> [[[ 16:00:14 - <sbp> - sbp I suppose you only need to throw the bits of protoplex into 16:00:15 - <sbp> kalati that kalati is currently missing, and that kalati needs to make 16:00:15 - <sbp> it work 16:00:15 - <sbp> - tav right 16:00:15 - <sbp> - tav only slight problem is perhaps that protoplex and kalati treat 16:00:15 - <sbp> trunk/home differently ? 16:00:17 - <sbp> ]]] 16:00:19 - <sbp> that's as far as it got 16:00:21 - * possumman doubts we will have time to change the protoplex api before the 5 week deadline. 16:01:43 - <sbp> as far as I can see, eventually more and more of the responsibility for this will fall to me 16:01:48 - <possumman> though i guess i don't know enough to have a valid opinion 16:02:21 - <sbp> but the eternal wrestling things from tav dilemma will never cease 16:02:30 - <oierw> please tell him that it's impossible for us to finish if we never begin 16:02:41 - <sbp> five weeks sounds insane to me too, but I have probably less knowledge right now 16:03:09 - <oierw> phenny: tell tav that if we never get to see the code we are never going to make the deadline 16:03:14 - <phenny> oierw: I'll pass that on when tav is around. 16:03:17 - <possumman> salfield: do you have the code? Could it be checked in to svn? 16:08:04 - <possumman> everyone: is there a reason not to use code that salfield has (if he has it)? 16:08:23 - <salfield> kalati is a set of high level concepts which are implemented to varying degrees and a certainly not a coherent application 16:08:51 - <salfield> possumman: I have branched protoplex with tav 16:09:14 - <sbp> ah crap, I forgot to relog in 16:09:28 - <sbp> KILLSTAB 16:09:32 - <salfield> that happened in february 16:09:32 - <salfield> so while the to codebases are very similar, they are not the same 16:10:02 - <salfield> all the green.tv work is only in tav's branch 16:10:22 - <possumman> I still think it would be helpful for me to start reviewing code from a branched protoplex. 16:13:44 - <possumman> I'll need to spend time understanding stuff before I can do any coding anyways. 16:13:44 - <possumman> couldn't what you have be posted somewhere, so we can get started in some form, at least conceptually. 16:13:45 - <possumman> ? 16:13:47 - <jeffarch> split 16:13:50 - <jeffarch> you'll have to post that again 16:14:30 - → tav joined 16:48:29 - * tav waves 16:48:45 - <phenny> tav: 23:03Z <oierw> tell tav that if we never get to see the code we are never going to make the deadline 16:48:47 - <tav> we got the nokia deal btw 16:55:34 - <tav> w00p! =) 16:55:38 - <oierw> good 16:55:47 - <oierw> now. green.tv code :) 16:55:54 - <tav> you slave drivers you
...
- <tav> hmz, i've been going through the various code bases over the last few days 21:01:04 - <tav> there's been so much repeated work done -- especially w.r.t zope3 21:01:15 - * tav sighs at wasted work 21:01:30 - <jeffarch> zope... 21:01:36 - <jeffarch> well, zodb seems to be a decent, usable piece, at least for now 21:02:36 - <tav> remember kollab? 21:04:05 - <jeffarch> part of the berlin effort 21:04:23 - <jeffarch> never seen it, otherwise 21:04:48 - <jeffarch> whatcha think of http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Home ? 21:11:49 - ← oierw left 21:13:04 - <tav> been following it for a few years now, good friends with the main devs -- we've discussed stripping out Axon and replacing it with disco down the line -- the media ramework on top should be rather useful 21:14:33 - <jeffarch> that sounds reasonable 21:15:22 - <tav> should be fun too! 21:16:21 - <jeffarch> heh...I read that much :) 21:16:53
Tav catches up... http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp-core/2006/06/21#21-32-32
[Infrastructure]
Server reconfiguration nearing completion
- <tav> GReaper: can you give me an overview of the qin situation pls 04:20:28 - <GReaper> it's up and running? :p 04:20:41 - <GReaper> just need to transfer stuff over 04:20:45 - <GReaper> it's running ubuntu dapper (6.06 lts) 04:21:04 - <GReaper> as debian amd64 was missing packages you needed 04:21:21 - <tav> ubuntu dapper is the host? or is that a xen instance? 04:22:05 - <GReaper> that's the xen instance 04:22:40 - <tav> what's the host? 04:23:27 - <GReaper> gentoo 04:24:23 - <GReaper> 32 bit slackware didn't quite work, 64 bit is unsupported 04:24:39 - <tav> right 04:30:38 - <tav> cool, nice work
...
- <GReaper> fastcgi would be easier to implement on the webserver 03:32:13 - <tav> hmz, what are the advantages of fastcgi ? 03:34:23 - <GReaper> apache or lighttpd will basically spawn the process itself 03:35:43 - <GReaper> however, it keeps the socket open and constantly reuses it to increase performance (unlike regular CGI) 03:36:15 - <GReaper> it *should* be easier to deploy on servers 03:36:42 - <tav> hmz, we'll be moving off of cherrypy soon 03:40:24 - <tav> guess we could use flup as long as wsgi is supported 03:41:16 - <tav> wsgi == http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0333/ 03:41:33 - <GReaper> http://www.saddi.com/software/flup/ 03:41:53 - <GReaper> WSGI servers 03:41:59 - <GReaper> flup.server.fcgi 03:42:03 - <GReaper> flup.server.fcgi_fork 03:42:03
- <GReaper> do NOT manually install anything in /usr
[Development Team Members]
[Protoplex/Kalati]
[VOIP]
[Licensing]
[Subversion]
- <tav> i'm thinking of using http://divmod.org/svn/Divmod/sandbox/exarkun/commit-bot/ 17:16:17 - <GReaper> is there a bot which doesn't rely on direct access to the repository? 17:19:14 - <tav> GReaper: could you install twisted python pls 17:21:04 - <tav> GReaper: hmz 17:21:17 - <tav> dunno 17:21:31 - <tav> i only know of this one bot -- it follows pretty much the same approach that we took before, i.e. using svnlook 17:21:51 - <tav> jeffarch/sbp: thoughts ? 17:22:27 - <GReaper> was hoping to keep the repository off qin 17:22:28 - <tav> oh 17:23:29 - <GReaper> could it not do an "svn log"? 17:25:39 - <GReaper> or something 17:25:41 - <tav> hmz 17:27:41 - <GReaper> or, something similar to ciabot 17:28:33 - <jeffarch> haven't really played with svn or related bots 17:28:55 - <GReaper> where it sends a message by email or XML-RPC 17:29:23 - <tav> http://www.espians.com/espra/esvn_post_commit.py.txt 17:30:25 - <tav> that was written quite a while back, dunno if it'd still work 17:31:01 - <tav> it basically ties into the post-commit, much like CIA i believe 17:32:16 - <tav> it then gathers up the info and then posts it to irc 17:32:27 - <GReaper> well, does anyone have a bot which can get the messages? :p 17:32:46 - <tav> well, the posting to irc is left to a separate process which reacts in response to the http call 17:32:49 - <tav> yeah, ehm, sbp: wanna add a feature to phenny? ;p 17:33:17 - <tav> hmz, seems like he might've hit the sack 17:34:40 - <GReaper> http://cia.navi.cx/clients/svn/ciabot_svn.py 17:34:43 - <GReaper> xml-rpc, perhaps 17:34:53 - <tav> that'd work too 17:38:01 - <tav> still, need a bot that also runs an xml-rpc server ;p 17:38:39 - <tav> phenny: tell sbp, can we add xml-rpc server support to phenny? 17:39:08 - <phenny> tav: I'll pass that on when sbp is around. 17:39:11 - <sbp> hi 17:39:19 - <phenny> sbp: 00:39Z <tav> tell sbp can we add xml-rpc server support to phenny? 17:39:21 - <sbp> xml-rpc + phenny? hahaha 17:39:31 - <tav> ;p 17:39:34 - <sbp> I hate xml-rpc in its evil skankridden ass 17:39:40 - <tav> well, don't care about the s11n format 17:40:14 - <sbp> heh, s11n 17:40:22 - <tav> just needs some way of accepting input remotely 17:40:26 - <sbp> I guess I could run a server on a port that you could feed lines into that would then appear here 17:41:27 - <sbp> better yet, I can just tail -f a file 17:41:37 - <sbp> and you can HTTP POST information to a URI 17:41:50 - <tav> sbp: sure 17:45:21 - <tav> gissus a URI then 17:50:38 - <sbp> I'll prolly do it tomorrow
[LOCALIZATION]
[Transparency]
Lots of volume with this. Please see http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp/2006/06/20#14-17-13
- <jeffarch> I haven't seen as many ops in a # since my EFNet days 09:03:18 - <sbp> heh, heh 09:03:30 - <tav> heh 09:40:01 - <tav> sbp: the op thing was meant to distinguish core espians from open espians... 09:40:23 - * tav sets mode: -o jhb|offline 09:40:31 - <tav> well core+full espians and open espians 09:40:54 - <possumman> what's the diff betw core and full? 09:41:53 - <sbp> frankly I think that's gay 09:42:15 - <sbp> especially if there's only one 09:42:22 - <sbp> and Freenode policy is to have as few ops as possible 09:42:26 - * possumman wonders whatever happened to greenbot 09:43:40 - <tav> sbp: well, there're only certain people that i want privy to certain discussions 09:53:02 - <tav> there's #esp for general 09:53:16 - <tav> core is really only meant for core espians 09:53:36 - <sbp> so why are the open espians here at all? 09:53:58 - <sbp> why not say that if you are on #esp-core you are a core espian? 09:54:08 - <tav> hmz, good idea 09:54:19 - <jeffarch> add another #? 09:56:42 - <tav> jeffarch: hmz, enough channels already ? 09:57:51 - <jeffarch> 2? 09:57:58 - <tav> yea 09:58:02 - <jeffarch> there have been more 09:58:09 - <tav> true, but they quickly faded 09:58:31 - <sbp> I think illegale's right, too 09:59:02 - <sbp> I don't understand the secrecy at all 09:59:11 - <sbp> because nobody's actually watching, surely 09:59:17 - <sbp> and if they are, we want to say hi! :-) 09:59:23 - <tav> sbp: hmz, as an example, JonathanTeper in #esp is a representative from one of our clients 10:00:20 - <jeffarch> oops :) 10:00:31 - <sbp> SPIES! 10:00:39 - <tav> jeffarch: can you delete that from the logs pls ;p 10:00:41 - <jeffarch> yup :) 10:00:46 - <tav> ta 10:00:48 - <tav> sbp: not quite spies, just people doing their due diligence 10:00:59 - <sbp> okay, so the question then becomes... 10:01:53 - <sbp> what are we hiding from him? 10:01:58 - <jeffarch> hiding slow progress? 10:02:53 - <sbp> that's what I was wondering 10:03:00 - <salfield> code? 10:03:13 - <jeffarch> no code on svn yet 10:04:22 - <sbp> and it'll be password protected anyway 10:04:31 - <sbp> per member passwords, that is 10:04:42 - <tav> sbp: business related discussions, &c. 10:06:00 - * sbp waves to anyone reading jeffarch's next Shaila 10:06:06 - <sbp> tav: like what? 10:06:15 - <tav> sbp: e.g. our real (tm) costs 10:06:45 - <sbp> heh, heh 10:06:52 - <sbp> fair enough 10:06:55 - <sbp> I'm basically pressing since I'm worried from two aspects at once: 10:07:15 - <sbp> * That privacy has become the default mode over transparency 10:07:43 - <sbp> * That if espianity collapses for another year or two, yet again there'll be no trace of all the good work conducted here 10:08:15 - <tav> hmz 10:09:12 - <tav> well, #esp is there ... 10:09:51 - <sbp> on the other hand, there's nothing more phoenix-like than esp. I'm not worried about espianity disappearing of the face of the earth, because it'll never do that, just that we won't remember what we've done and nor will anybody else be able to find out 10:09:56 - <sbp> yeah, but we're not doing anything there 10:10:04 - <sbp> nobody's done anything there for years 10:10:14 - <tav> once we start to release work to the general public, there'd be things there 10:10:25 - <sbp> it's just urgyen chatting to nsh about bizzare things 10:10:25 - <tav> a community that we'd then have to nurture 10:10:36 - <jeffarch> waiting to be bootstraped 10:10:54 - <sbp> like in 2004? 10:10:57 - <tav> just like in the past .... 10:10:59 - <tav> right 10:11:03 - <jeffarch> similarities between now and last year's logs 10:11:24 - <jeffarch> we have clients now, and "realer" (tm) deadlines 10:12:22 - <sbp> jeffarch: yeah, if you did your bit of Histrivia with more offset it'd probably be more interesting 10:12:30 - <sbp> say 2.5 years instead of 1 10:12:34 - * tav wonders if there's a cyclic nature to espian activities 10:12:54 - * jeffarch has notices such 10:13:02 - <jeffarch> noticed 10:13:05 - <sbp> more of an upwards spiral 10:13:13 - <sbp> it's the same each time, but different :-) 10:13:20 - <jeffarch> sbp: that's exactly what I visualize 10:13:25 - <sbp> sweet 10:13:29 - <jeffarch> this is the 3rd itteration I've seen 10:14:05 - <sbp> same here 10:14:13 - <sbp> I know of 4 overall 10:14:20 - <jeffarch> that's in 2.5 years 10:14:21 - <sbp> 2000, 2001/2002, 2004, and now, 2006 10:14:28 - <sbp> oh? you'd throw in an extra iteration? 10:14:39 - <sbp> oh right, there was all the German hacking 10:14:45 - <jeffarch> ya 10:14:49 - <sbp> 2005 10:14:50 - <jeffarch> exactly 10:15:02 - <sbp> with enki and dert and whonot 10:15:02 - <sbp> we're on turn 5! 10:15:20 - <sbp> funny that it's almost an annual rhythm 10:16:25 - <sbp> with the exception of the Lost Year 10:16:31 - <jeffarch> heh...noticed that too :) 10:16:37 - <sbp> 2003 was quiet for everyone 10:16:41 - <sbp> also I think 2000 might've been more like 1999/2000 10:17:41 - <sbp> wasn't around for that one 10:17:44 - <jeffarch> tav: stick some code in svn already :) 10:19:48 - <sbp> when do we get accounts, I wonder? 10:20:06 - <possumman> Hmz. If we're hiding from certain people, why are we posting these discussions on the web? 10:22:26 - <sbp> possumman: see the robots.txt file for openideaproject.org 10:22:41 - <sbp> /irclogs/ are blanked out 10:22:50 - <possumman> Hmz. But surely that's not all that good a defence against people, even a little bit interested. Do even all search engines adhere to robots.txt? 10:23:38 - <sbp> they do indeed, and we don't post the link publically anyway 10:24:00 - <sbp> it is indeed security by obscurity, but it's effective enough 10:24:23 - <possumman> Ah. 10:24:59 - <sbp> it's amazing how good people are at following robots.txt, really 10:25:51 - <sbp> probably only spambots don't follow it 10:25:57 - <sbp> and plenty of people follow it even when they don't really need to 10:26:07
[3ware]
[butterfly.tv]
[Development Summary]
[Shaila]
- sbp waves to the Shaila readers again
[World Cup]
[Other]
- <possumman> Hey I'm a Moderator now! 08:55:26 - * possumman revels in his new glory 08:55:32 - * possumman was kicked by possumman (possumman) 08:55:35 - → possumman joined 08:56:06 - * ChanServ sets mode: +o possumman 08:56:06 - * possumman has been suitably humbled
Kinda along the lines of the Transparency discussion... http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp/2006/06/21#17-34-04
- * jeffarch wonders where the latest batch of #esp visitors got dragged in from 18:02:00 - <oierw> *shrug* 18:20:37 - <oierw> they seem to be more hostile than the normal bunch 18:20:53 - ← Omni|AFK left 18:27:56 - <jeffarch> ya...I think he came in with illegale 18:29:41 - → Omni|AFK joined 18:30:49 - <oierw> esp isn't especially interesting right now. hopefully in a couple of months most of what goes on here will be there 18:30:52 - <tav> so, hmz, i'd like to purge #esp of certain people -- sorry, i feel like a rather purgeful mood recently 20:38:26 - <tav> nsh, illegale, Prax01D 20:38:46 - <jeffarch> nsh behaves himself mostly 20:39:20 - <tav> as useful as some of their comments are, there's just too much noise to have to trawl through the daily logs 20:39:22 - <tav> i've stopped reading esp logs most of the time now =( 20:39:36 - <jeffarch> the other 2, otoh 20:40:01 - <jeffarch> ya ain't missing much 20:40:08 - <jeffarch> oierw esp isn't especially interesting right now. hopefully in a couple of months most of what goes on here will be there 20:40:23 - <tav> i liked it when we drew interestring trolls -- they were fun 20:42:06 - <jeffarch> I haven't seen anything constructive from illegale and Praxo1D 20:43:31 - <jeffarch> philosophy battles don't count 20:44:50 - <tav> sorry, am i being a tad too control freaky recently? 20:47:09 - <jeffarch> in some ways, not enuf 20:47:30 - <tav> ... 20:47:37 - <jeffarch> hm 20:48:01 - * tav goes to smoke a rollie and cough whilst jeffarch thinks up a carefully worded response ;p 20:48:46 - <jeffarch> LOL 20:48:54 - <jeffarch> been a little slack around here 20:49:23 - <jeffarch> maybe you've gathered us here cuz you're a tease and not cuz you're a control freak ;p 20:50:25 - <jeffarch> as for transparency, well you've heard my thoughts on translucency
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TTLY
- This Time Last Year - a look at the #esp logs from a yearago, just for fun
- <tav> peeka 13:11:32 - <oierw> tav?!? 14:47:15 - <Omni|Work> He was here. 14:58:44 - <Omni|Work> Now he's gone. 14:58:49 - <nsh> did tav say anything else while he was here? 18:18:01
Otherwise, lots of interesting conversation between nsh and urgen
