Shaila, 22 June 2006
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The Team Of Total Awesomenesses Shaila, The Fifth
- Info: See <http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp-core/latest> for introductory docs.
- Author: Jeffry Archambeault (jeffarch) <jjarchambeault@gmail.com>
- Date: $Date: 2006-06-23 12:30:00 +0100 (Thu, 22 Jun 2006) $
- Revision: $Revision: 0001 $
- Description: Summary of daily #esp-core IRC logs
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Shaila Meta-Stuff
Lots of volume in this shaila. I will attempt to include as much as 23 June as possible, before posting.
References
_devplan: http://www.espians.com/espra/devplan.html document covers the details.
_devtasks: http://www.largeblue.com/_space/first_run_through.txt
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#esp-core Summary
[Business Contracts]
- <tav> GReaper: do we want to have php apps running on qin or on a separate xen instance on qin ? 10:02:45 - <GReaper> salfield already has various php sites on qin 10:03:13 - <tav> ah, well ltb foundation folk want to have a php site too -- just thinking it might be unwise to have these on the same server as the dev server 10:04:16 - <tav> they'd like 2 accounts (usernames: blake + robert) 10:04:53 - <tav> GReaper: can we also have an account for the tavistock festival -- the domain is being pointed towards ns1/ns2.espnow.net as we speak 10:07:12 - <GReaper> details please, details 10:07:26 - <tav> tavistockfestival.co.uk -- needs a normal account where the site can be uploaded as well as forwards for a few mail accounts -- well, just mailadmin access would do. can take it from there
- <tav> thruflo: what's the fairtrade foundation thing ? 05:54:13 - <thruflo> It's for a microsite and interactive game to promote buying fairtrade products when 'out of home' 05:54:58 - <thruflo> contact is Emma Huntly 05:55:14 - <tav> emma != hannah# 05:55:19 - <thruflo> :( 05:55:23 - <thruflo> but emma may know hannah! 05:55:31 - <tav> hmz 05:55:59 - <thruflo> ideas by mid next week... any thoughts on viral fair trade games? 05:56:02 - <tav> wtf does "out of home" mean? homeless? 05:56:33 - <thruflo> when 'out of the house' 05:56:44 - <tav> i'm trying to understand why that extra bit is relevant? 05:57:09 - <tav> i.e. not online ? 05:57:13 - <thruflo> when not shopping at the ssupermarket 05:57:23 - <tav> right 05:57:38 - <tav> ehm... that cryptpict thing ? 05:57:53 - <thruflo> btw ade's also mtg the head of comms for the ftf soon and i suggested he moot your photograph the barcode idea 05:59:07 - <thruflo> ah which is what you meant by cryptpict 05:59:23 - <thruflo> let me know if you'd rather we didn;t pitch it this way 05:59:59 - <tav> i do rather it wasn't pitched that way 06:00:11 - <tav> for the reasons you're aware of ;p 06:00:20 - <tav> the things a guy does for a girl 06:00:38 - <thruflo> you'd rather you were invited into the ftf offices to a blast of trumpets riding a white horse? 06:00:48 - <tav> right ;p 06:00:54 - <thruflo> i'll ask ade to set it up 06:01:06 - <tav> ta 06:01:08 - <thruflo> np 06:01:10 - <thruflo> but seriously...? 06:01:18 - <tav> what do you mean "but seriously..." ??? 06:01:49 - <sbp> hehe 06:02:39 - <sbp> will some tramps whistling and a large grey dog be alright? 06:03:02 - <tav> heh
[Business Structure]
- <tav> http://svn.espnow.net/kalati/kore/project/esp/state_of_espia.txt
[Business Accounting]
[Development Timeline]
[Development Tasks]
- <jhb> has tav put up any code yet? 03:08:37 - <oierw> no 03:08:46 - <oierw> he did say that he's going torough code and noticing how many times we reproduce the same thing 03:09:12 - <oierw> i'm wondering if he's realized it's becuase everything esp does is like doing it the first time since we don't have code for antyhing else that's been done 03:09:35 - <jhb> there are not to many things to build upon 03:10:51 - <jhb> maybe he means: how many times we reproduce 03:11:09 - <jhb> maybe he means: how many times he reproduces
- <GReaper> also, tav 04:05:26 - <GReaper> don't use python 2.5 beta for any of this damn development 04:05:51 - <GReaper> try and stick to tried and tested packages available in ubuntu if possible :p 04:32:54 - <tav> GReaper: heh, some bits of kalati code depend on py2.5 =( 04:35:01 - <GReaper> why? 04:35:13 - <GReaper> alter it 04:35:21 - <tav> i was happy about the beta release as it'd mean that we wouldn't need to maintain a py2.5 release ourselves 04:35:29 - <tav> GReaper: py2.5 provides full continuations support -- vital to disco 04:35:45 - <GReaper> you shouldn't rely on beta packages 04:38:12 - <GReaper> if you want the latest and greatest, it goes into your user account only 04:38:46 - <GReaper> it doesn't touch /usr 04:38:52
- <tav> sbp: thoughts on this directory structure 05:27:27 - <tav> -- 05:27:27 - <tav> [tav@arkady:/var/esp]$ ls -F 05:27:28 - <tav> kore/ readme.txt release/ sandbox/ trunk/ 05:27:28 - <tav> [tav@arkady:/var/esp]$ ls -F trunk/ 05:27:28 - <tav> application/ documentation/ home/ local/ redpill* source/ 05:27:31 - <tav> -- 05:27:33 - <tav> does that provide a maintainable and clear structure or should it be structured differently ? 05:30:30 - <sbp> does readme.txt explain what each of the directories does? 05:34:03 - <sbp> I'm not sure, for example, about trunk/home and kore/ 05:34:14 - <tav> http://svn.espnow.net/kalati/readme.txt 05:34:46 - <tav> trunk/home is for kalati/protoplex instances 05:35:09 - <tav> /kore is where general co-ordination and communication takes place. 05:36:32 - <tav> /trunk is where the mainline development takes place and, we will try to 05:36:32 - <tav> keep it stable. 05:36:35 - <tav> /sandbox is where the branches are kept, and also acts as a playground for 05:36:38 - <tav> the various espians. 05:36:41 - <tav> /release is where release snapshots will be created for deployment.
- <tav> so, my vague hopes of getting the whole development going in full flow by the time i leave is reasonable ? 14:07:26 - <tav> july 1st that is 14:07:43 - <tav> will be back on the 8th 14:07:48 - <talonlzr> It should be, yes. 14:08:00 - <tav> woo! 14:08:04 - <talonlzr> We will lay down a real plan tomorrow, ok? 14:08:09 - <talonlzr> Put some dates on things, prioritize a little etc. 14:08:30
- <tav> shall i explain http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python to you ? 17:18:35 - <tav> the meta-structure that is 17:18:42 - ← Omni|Work left 17:18:48 - <sbp> sure 17:18:55 - <tav> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python/site is probably the best place to start 17:19:35 - <tav> we provide PIMP_LOCATIONS via the system environment 17:20:07 - <tav> the sitecustomise automatically loads up http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python/importer/pimp/pimp.py 17:21:16 - <tav> and does enter_the_red_light_district() 17:21:28 - <tav> which just creates the appropriate pimps (currently, only LocalPimps are available) and sets up appropriate builtins 17:22:15 - <sbp> ModuleType = type(__builtin__) 17:22:47 - <sbp> or from types import ModuleType 17:22:54 - <tav> both are valid 17:23:15 - <tav> i'm gradually looking to deprecate the std library 17:23:27 - <tav> ;p 17:23:32 - <sbp> fair enough 17:23:35 - <tav> woo! the first person who didn't suggest that was insane 17:24:34 - <sbp> :-) 17:24:53 - <sbp> I'm a bit less keen on "# @/@ should perhaps be the aktual instanse ..." of course 17:25:41 - <sbp> "# otherwise, look in various locations" - especially since you're inkonsistent 17:26:11 - <tav> there's 'builtin/type' -- aka http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python/builtin/type/type.py to take over already 17:26:26 - <sbp> ooh, duck typing 17:26:57 - <tav> oh yeah, where i've rewritten or adapted code, i've added some benefits, e.g. some documentation, removal of fluff, &c. - <tav> pimp is probably easily explained by looking at http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python/disco/base/disco.py 17:32:51 - <sbp> because clearly there's an inconsistency somewhere between my version of svn and the version on bia 17:32:54 - <sbp> just smoothing it over now won't change the inconsistency in the software 17:33:10 - <sbp> so it may remanifest itself 17:33:13 - <sbp> hence it'd be preferable to fix the software, not kludge a fix 17:33:32 - <sbp> but... 17:33:34 - <tav> at the top you can see it pimping various bits and bobs. pimp('from/some/path', 'func1', 'func2', 'func3 as foo') 17:33:48 - ← Killarny left 17:33:53 - <tav> you can even do pimp('from/some/path', ':some_predefined_export') - which are kinda like subsets of 'from foo import * ' 17:34:33 - <tav> but, instead of __all__, __export__ is used to define them 17:34:47 - <tav> with pimp('some/path', '*') falling back to __all__ 17:35:10 - <sbp> python/builtin/type/type.py is pretty neat 17:35:41 - <tav> it's mainly just a cleanup of the std. library version 17:36:16 - <tav> oh, yeah, i got tired of seeing all those __init__.py files in my editor 17:36:39 - <sbp> "# let's play with mr. sok -- sok me off darling" 17:36:46 - <tav> so, made pimp's behavious different 17:36:49 - <tav> ^behaviour 17:36:59 - <tav> ehm, *cough* 17:37:02 - <sbp> "# duk typing -- if it walks and quaks like a duk is it a duk?" 17:37:06 - <tav> hmz, maybe i shouldn't have let this code get off my lappy 17:39:13 - → Killarny joined 17:39:36 - <sbp> why's that? 17:39:39 - <tav> it's a bit private yer'know 17:39:52 - <tav> wb Killarny 17:39:59 - <sbp> seems pretty great to me so far 17:40:02
[Development Team Members]
- <salfield> okay, I have been ordered out of the channel by King Tav. If anyone needs to contact me about server issues (I own qin and am using it on a daily basis) then I will be in #esp 02:01:25 - <salfield> please dont keep those conversations secretly here - I am affected 02:02:01 - * jhb|offline hereby officially protests to king tav (and his followers) about the ban of salfield - what kind of open source related development style is that? 02:58:55 - <jhb> I might even come online to do that ;-) 02:59:09 - <oierw> it was probably a privmsg 03:04:35 - <jhb> yes, thats even worse 03:05:21 - <oierw> yes 03:05:27 - <sbp> OMG, just make him a core espian 05:18:34 - <sbp> you made me a core espian and I didn't even want to be an espian at all! :-) 05:18:45 - <tav> ;p 05:18:50 - <sbp> it's silly 05:18:51 - <sbp> it's like a kids club 05:18:54 - <sbp> The No Homerz Club 05:18:58 - <tav> well, i only really want people who give a damn about the project 05:19:07 - <sbp> if he's interested enough to join the channel, that sounds like qualification enough no? 05:19:13 - <tav> not just when there's money involved 05:19:15 - <tav> that's one of the mistakes we made in the past 05:19:33 - <sbp> I think anyone who knows anything at all about esp should know that money is not particularly the motivating factor for work :-) 05:19:54 - <sbp> what's the toman model for admitting people to core espianity? 05:20:20 - <jhb> sbp: its not about him (assuming you mean tom) complaining - he did not do that at all. It was just me being surprised, maybe not knowing enough about the etiquette 05:20:29 - <sbp> there was some democratic element to it right? 05:20:31 - <sbp> Tom? who's Tom? 05:20:41 - <jhb> sbp: salfield 05:20:46 - <sbp> what's salfield's status in the run of things? 05:21:07 - <tav> certification by enough existing core espians in time for the next certification period 05:21:09 - <jhb> I was not asked to leave 05:21:10 - <sbp> he's root on qin, that I know 05:21:11 - <sbp> was salfield asked to leave? was anyone? 05:21:22 - <tav> sbp: salfield wanted to go off and do things on his own -- he didn't want to be involved with esp anymore, thus i was puzzled when he dropped by earlier ;p 05:21:54 - <sbp> ah, weird 05:22:04 - <tav> yeah, he thinks we aren't committed to creating alternative economic models, &c. 05:22:28 - <sbp> pfft 05:22:37 - <sbp> I've not seen you talk about much else :-) 05:23:06 - <sbp> anyway, it seems that he is still root: 05:23:12 - <sbp> [00:31] <GReaper> there are 5 users with root on qin 05:23:13 - <sbp> [00:34] <GReaper> jeffarch, salfield, tav, evangineer, myself 05:23:13 - <jhb> just wondering - isn't he partially owning that machine? 05:23:39 - <GReaper> he OWNS that machine 05:23:41 - <sbp> ha 05:23:45 - <tav> i spent fucking days pleading with him -- and, now like a lover spurned, i don't want him anymore ;p 05:23:56 - <sbp> and... um... he's okay for us to use it? 05:23:59 - <tav> hmz, that's not true as of an hour ago 05:24:02 - <GReaper> so don't be too stupid, please :p 05:24:03 - <tav> we own that machine and he's renting off of us 05:24:18 - <jhb> what changed an hour ago? 05:24:32 - <jhb> and does he know it? 05:24:43 - <tav> i had a phone call to salfield 05:24:47 - <jhb> ok 05:25:13 - <sbp> aha 05:25:29 - <jeffarch> I recall salfield making a statement in #esp a while back that made me wonder why he was in #esp-core 06:39:35 - <tav> *shrug* guess he didn't necessarily realise the distinction and thought he'd hang out here as a way of observing what's going on 06:45:15 - <tav> but it perplexes me why, me saying: 06:46:59 - <tav> 00:51 <tav> hey sexy, can you leave #esp-core pls -- as of this afternoon, only meant for core espians 06:47:01 - <tav> gets a response like: 06:47:09 - <tav> 11:14 <salfield> try and the antagonistic approach with me, and I assure you, you will regret it 06:47:11 - <tav> that's the only line i said -- hope that doesn't seem antagonistic? 06:47:43 - <jeffarch> doesn't seem so 06:48:08 - <tav> oh well, water under the bridge and all that 06:48:26 - <sbp> it almost does to me 06:48:42 - <sbp> I wouldn't put it as antagonistic though, since it was polite 06:48:52 - <sbp> I do feel like we're trying to create that darn-tootin' 1950s Alabama enrionment though 06:49:28 - <sbp> <- hippie 06:49:40 - <tav> what does that feel like? ;p 06:49:40 - <tav> you young hippie you 06:50:10 - <sbp> I'm just more used to open-participation projects, I guess 06:50:15 - <sbp> not at all used to "we are working on the project, you are not" 06:50:36 - <tav> well, i'm striving to hit the middle ground between being able to develop and do all the cool things that we can do and actually doing them 06:52:05 - <sbp> heh, heh 06:52:16 - <jeffarch> heheh 06:52:29 - <jeffarch> <- older hippie 06:52:59 - <tav> wordplay aside, i'm serious... that's not an easy path -- a long bootstrapping -- but rather possible imo 06:53:58 - <tav> the journey so far has been very interesting -- at least from my perspective ;p 06:56:40 - <jeffarch> well...keep on keepin' on 06:57:09 - * tav waits for some reggae tune to kick in 06:57:40
- <tav> so, what's your time considerations like for the coming month -- you don't have much time right? 05:16:47 - <tav> and are really only interested in a mercenary basis? 05:17:37 - <jhb> about my time commitment: yes, mercenary mode it would be, and I am pretty loaded at the moment. Due to being on holiday in Ireland between 3rd and 10th I will be - offline during that time 05:23:02
A summary of http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp-core/2006/06/23#04-27-42
- * kpi seems not to have access to qin atm :( 04:27:42 - <tav> hey 04:35:01 - <tav> right, kpi, i need to know that you fully understand the intellectual property issue 04:35:44 - <tav> kpi: sorry, i don't trust you -- the summer camp sprint and the london sprint -- for many of the aspects that went wrong, and whether rightly or wrongly, i see you as - the seed of the problem 05:23:29 - <tav> kpi: i should've said that on the phone the other day. but, i really didn't have a clear understanding of my thoughts on this until this monring 05:25:16 - <kpi> tav: well. others dont seem to have that problem. so it's between you and me than. 05:25:34 - <kpi> s/than/then/ 05:25:42 - * jhb disagrees 05:25:45 - <kpi> jhb: with me? 05:26:06 - <jhb> actually, with both of you 05:26:13 - <jhb> its not that there was a single source of problems, or seed or anything like that 05:26:46 - <jhb> In my point of view the appearance of tav changed the flow of things quite a lot 05:28:04 - <jhb> but kpi also caused some issues, even though not as clearly attributable 05:29:06 - <jhb> of course, I also did my share.... 05:29:57 - <jhb> We had lots of those legal discussions - completely hindering the progress 05:30:56 - <jhb> (is hindering working here) 05:31:09 - <kpi> jhb: i agree with this. 05:31:28 - <jhb> so I am quite happy that things are much more into the get work done first mode 05:31:29 - <jhb> after all, existing code rules 05:31:44 - * jhb should retreat 05:32:08 - <kpi> right: rough consensus and running code. can we have both pls? 05:32:31 - <tav> kpi: i'm sure we will 05:33:14 - <tav> i still don't trust you though... 05:33:19 - <tav> how do we rectify that? 05:33:27 - <kpi> ok. then let's go and get this now to a fine end. 05:33:58 - <jhb> tav: in my point of view its very fair if you set rules, might be very constructive, actually 05:34:14 - <kpi> tav: what are the consequences of you not trusting me then? 05:34:32 - <tav> a). i only want to work with people who i can trust and can be very laid back around 05:34:45 - <tav> there is no b). 05:35:25 - <tav> ;p 05:35:26 - <kpi> heh. 05:35:30 - <kpi> ok. so out of a i conclude that we cant work together until you found your trust in me again. 05:35:52 - <kpi> right? 05:36:12 - <kpi> tav: i would be happy if you let me know why you dont trust me. i have not got it yet. this does not have to happen here though. 05:38:59 - <sbp> I'd rather see it here if I'm going to be working with you both :-) 05:40:49 - <kpi> sbp: same for me. i would really like to work with you. even unpaid ... 05:41:52 - <kpi> or more precisely: with a fair promise of payment. 05:42:46 - <sbp> kpi: as I say, I tend to think of it more as a volunteer open source project with a small chance of payment at some point (I'd put a percentage estimate to that but tav would hit me). this for me is no problem since I contribute to many projects on a volunteer basis 05:44:42 - <kpi> sbp: yes. i have understood this and i am fine with it. 05:45:12 - <sbp> if the percentage were higher, I would be able to contribute more, but I don't care about it too much since the onus there isn't on me, and either way I'm gonna contribute to the project as much as is within my mental and financial means 05:45:17 - * sbp nods 05:45:20 - <kpi> sbp: but i do see that you play an important role in this project. 05:45:49 - <sbp> well, the thing you have to consider is that, for yourself, is the probability of payment high enough to make it worthwhile? or, better yet since it's a sliding scale, how much work can you offset against the probability 05:45:56 - <sbp> and that's a value judgement you have to make yourself, just like I've done for myself. and I've probably got it wrong and you'll probably get it wrong, so the important thing is not to overstress it too much :-) 05:46:33 - <tav> -- 05:46:34 - <tav> 13:35 < kpi> ok. so out of a i conclude that we cant work together until you found your trust in me again. 05:46:43 - <tav> 13:36 < kpi> right? 05:46:46 - <tav> -- 05:46:48 - <sbp> and try to be a little pessimistic, perhaps 05:46:49 - <tav> i would say right to that ? 05:46:52 - <kpi> well: i am here spending my time on a channel to discuss questions of trust with people i like a lot. that's a lot of commitment i suppose. 05:47:13 - <sbp> yup! 05:47:19 - <tav> true 05:47:28 - <kpi> tav: you say whatever you want to say. 05:47:42 - <kpi> say something! 05:47:50 - <kpi> no question marks 05:47:57 - <sbp> heh, heh 05:48:05 - <sbp> if I were him, I wouldn't know what to say :-) 05:48:52 - <tav> kpi: one of the tactics that the british raj used in india was divide and conquer 05:49:01 - <kpi> sbp: true. 05:49:08 - <kpi> tav: keep it. i can go and dont need to be carried out. 05:49:28 - <tav> heh, k 05:49:55 - <tav> truly though, thanks for your efforts 05:50:11 - <kpi> however i want you to know that i feel judged on a basis i dont understand. 05:50:27 - <kpi> so: have fun. let me know when you want me around to play with you again. 05:51:09 - <tav> i hope i'm not simply being paranoid. 05:51:19 - <sbp> this is an "it isn't going to work in the short term, but no hard feelings" sort of thing? 05:51:27 - <tav> if so, i truly am sorry 05:51:27 - * kpi is off for playing with the other bunch of kids next corner 05:51:29 - <tav> sbp: *nod* 05:51:39 - * kpi hopes this to be temporary ... 05:51:55 - <sbp> glumnesses 05:51:57 - ← kpi left 05:52:10 - <sbp> in retrospect, you should've alloted more time for team formation 05:53:12 - <sbp> :-) 05:53:14 - <tav> heh 05:53:18 - <tav> true 05:53:27 - <tav> well, the purge is over ;p 05:53:52
[Protoplex/Kalati]
- <Killarny> I'm not entirely sure what kalati needs in order to be considered 'merged' with protoplex 20:32:58 - <Killarny> fixing the event system, I guess? 20:33:57 - <Killarny> implementing templates 20:34:10 - <tav> basically http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python/app/plexnet needs to be working/stable and have the various application logic code from http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python/app/proto ported over to it 20:34:47 - <tav> well, we've got our own (thanks to kid) templating too -- http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/browser/trunk/source/python/templating/pyxt/pyxt.py 20:35:57 - <Killarny> I'm going to try to find a place for me to slide in and work on the code, and over the next few weeks just split my time between military, coding, and sleep
- <Killarny> reading redpill 17:55:55 - <Killarny> already found some stuff I want to work on :P 17:56:05 - <Killarny> why is "a modern unix operating system" a requirement? 17:57:23 - <Killarny> are steps taken in the code to specifically make that requirement? python should work anywhere 17:57:53 - <Killarny> gcc and the gnu utils should work at least on a windows computer with cygwin 17:58:44 - <sbp> but not svn 17:59:26 - <Killarny> svn is required to compile and run kalati? 18:00:01 - <tav> Killarny: oooh, hmz, there are some other libraries we use... 18:04:39 - <tav> and i didn't have a windows machine handy to compile and test regularly on 18:04:59 - <Killarny> I am in the opposite position :) 18:05:37 - <GReaper> theres qin 18:05:47 - <Killarny> it is my personal belief that for any software to reach a widespread mainstream audience, the first requirement is that it runs on windows 18:06:53 - <Killarny> secondly, in the os heirarchy, is osx 18:07:08 - <Killarny> I assume that it'll work on osx already? 18:07:44 - <tav> should do 18:09:57 - <jeffarch> Killarny: you can use our servers to do dev on, for now. 18:10:18 - <jeffarch> that's where the initial app will live anyway 18:10:58 - <jeffarch> our client's audience just need to have a web browser 18:12:08 - <tav> eventual aim of course to replace the damned browser with something miles better ;p
- <xena> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/changeset/17 by tav (3 added) in 2 subdirs of kore/project/ -- 'very early draft of a document about the mesh economy, cryptpict, &c.' -- mesheconomy.html (A)
- <sbp> how is the .html file generated from the .txt? 10:06:30 - <tav> i use the following: 10:06:52 - <tav> -- 10:06:53 - <tav> [tav@arkady:/var/kalati/kore/project/kalati]$ pyutil rst2html -t ../../template/current.pyxt -o FROM_FILE_PATH devplan.txt 10:06:54 - <tav> -- 10:06:57 - <tav> you can leave out the -o FROM_FILE_PATH 10:07:52 - <sbp> pyutil being ./trunk/application/core/pyutil? 10:08:00 - <tav> yeah 10:08:11 - <tav> which should be a symlink to the redpill 10:08:25 - <sbp> so basically it's unlikely to work for me? :-) 10:08:39 - <tav> based on how its called -- i.e. through which symlink, it'll behave differently 10:08:46 - <tav> heh 10:08:50 - <tav> well, i guess getting it to work is going to be a way of learning ;p 10:09:11 - <sbp> $ ../../../trunk/application/core/pyutil rst2html -t ../../template/current.pyxt -o devplan-test.html devplan.txt 10:09:21
- <sbp> /usr/bin/env: python.recent: No such file or directory 10:09:22 - <tav> i'd simply add trunk/application/core to the $PATH first 10:09:43 - <tav> then, in application/executable make a symlink to your python2.5 10:10:09 - <sbp> $ PATH=$PATH:../../../trunk/application/core pyutil rst2html -t ../../template/current.pyxt -o devplan-test.html devplan.txt 10:10:30 - <sbp> /usr/bin/env: python.recent: No such file or directory 10:10:30 - <sbp> python2.5? 10:10:36 - <tav> you don't have py2.5!? 10:10:49 - <tav> *gasp* 10:10:53 - <sbp> it only came out two days ago! nobody told me! 10:10:57 - <tav> using all the right switches i presume ? 10:17:35 - <possumman> Py2.5? Didn' know that was out either. That's what we'll be plexing in? 10:18:00 - <sbp> sigh, which switches should I use? 10:18:00 - <tav> sbp: the only important one is --enable-unicode=ucs2 10:40:54
- <possumman> So should I upgrade to python 2.5? 10:31:36 - <sbp> possumman: probably, but not yet 10:31:47 - <sbp> it would seem that kalati, being tav's code, relies on 2.5 features 10:32:06 - <sbp> but I'm not sure about that yet 10:32:07 - <possumman> Okay. What's it currently running in? 2.4? 10:32:17 - <sbp> it'd also seem that he's using some specific python configuration 10:32:20 - <possumman> ah 10:32:25 - <sbp> which I need to wrestle out of him first 10:32:29 - <possumman> okay 10:32:33 - <sbp> once I've got it all going, I'll send instructions to the list for everyone 10:32:39 - <possumman> great. I'll start by reviewing the code, anyway. 10:32:54 - <sbp> awesome 10:32:59 - <possumman> what url do i checkout with my svn client? 10:37:09 - <sbp> possumman: lemme write that up to the list 10:38:57 - <sbp> well: 10:39:15 - <sbp> $ svn checkout http://svn.espnow.net/kalati 10:39:16 - ← thruflo left 10:39:42 - <tav> we need 2.5 because of disco which relies on features like being able to send to generators, i.e. coroutine support 10:39:45
[VOIP]
Tav, get a headset
- <talonlzr> then we have something to talk about too :) 13:40:22 - <talonlzr> or better: get a mike 13:40:30 - <talonlzr> and a headset 13:40:33 - <talonlzr> and skype. 13:40:35 - <tav> yeah, i think i've spent over £1k just on phone calls in the last 3 months 13:41:22 - <talonlzr> my point exactly ;P 13:41:37 - <talonlzr> You could save 100% on our calls at least 13:41:52 - <talonlzr> with a simple software download and a comfortable headset. 13:42:04 - <tav> woo! 13:42:23 - <tav> okay, we'll talk tomorrow night then 13:42:34 - <talonlzr> the KOSS SB45 is quite ok, btw :) 13:42:51 - <talonlzr> about L29 I guess. 13:43:04 - <tav> the what ? 13:43:17 - <talonlzr> headset. 13:43:23 - <tav> ah - <talonlzr> Platronics are good for speech 13:46:00 - <talonlzr> usually sucks for muzak and everything else 13:46:08 - <tav> well, i tried one out, and it was good enough for me -- especially since it allows me to walk around, and do other shit 13:47:00
- <talonlzr> after that, we can talk. did you get a mike? 12:18:02 - <jeffarch> heh...I remember when we were messing with skype last year and tav was reminded to get a mic 12:19:08
[Licensing]
- <tav> btw, sbp: can you ensure that people understand and agree with http://www.espians.com/espra/devplan.html#intellectual-property before giving them accounts pls 07:10:10
- <tav> oierw: well, basically, copyright goes to ESP. and ESP puts all kalati-related (and most likely all other) copyright into the public domain 20:05:40 - <tav> oierw: yes 20:05:43 - <oierw> tav: i know at some point it was asked if they could put stuff into public domain or atleast make it some sort of public after a period, either sometime in 2007 or 2008 after feeling burnt on opencola 20:06:30 - <oierw> and you agreed to a time... 20:06:36 - <tav> oierw: the date for the public domain transfer is by default on xmas 2007. i can (and hopefully will) make that earlier 20:06:41 - <tav> yeah, i understood the opencola background to possumman's proposal -- made good sense 20:07:05 - <jeffarch> how quick we can get diff products out the door? 20:07:24 - <oierw> tav: i recommend thast be spelt out in the ip section 20:07:45 - <tav> oierw: doesn't it say that? 20:07:58 - * tav looks at http://svn.espnow.net/kalati/kore/project/kalati/devplan.html#intellectual-property 20:08:31 - <oierw> "Whilst we are committed to ensuring that Protoplex/Kalati become public domain (at the very latest Christmas 2007)" 20:08:38 - <oierw> doesn't specify that it will be no mater what unless people agree to set it later 20:08:51 - <jeffarch> would protoplex gets released to PD first? 20:09:21 - <tav> oierw: trouble parsing your very last sentence... 20:09:42 - <tav> jeffarch: hmz, everything now should get merged into kalati ideally 20:09:51 - <tav> waiting for feedback from sbp 20:10:13 - <jeffarch> true, but some things may be off-the-shelf in protoplex that will be replaced with native modules in kalati 20:10:37 - <oierw> how about adding "the code will default to public domain on december 25, 2007" 20:10:40 - <tav> yeah, that's a good spin that 20:12:03 - * tav laugh 20:12:08 - <tav> jeffarch: *nod* 20:12:26 - <jeffarch> nice xmas present to the world :) - <Killarny> I thought kalati was the hacked up going-to-be-obsoleted-by-plexnet thingy 20:14:40 - <Killarny> is kalati now the preferred thing? 20:14:47 - <tav> Killarny: did you read that devplan.html document ? 20:15:02 - * jeffarch smacks Killarny with a trout 20:15:16 - <Killarny> I don't think so, but I read something on the site about that 20:15:35 - <tav> hmz, pls do read it 20:15:43 - <oierw> killarny: the entire thing with the source going to public domain (or a reasonable foss license atleast) is to prevent the code from dying without ever seeing the light of day 20:15:44 - <Killarny> I got caught in a router crash trying to read the devplan doc 20:15:59 - <Killarny> okay, so the devplan is where I got that implication from 20:17:50 - <Killarny> Kalati 20:17:58 - <Killarny> A pseudo-perfect and incomplete implementation of the Plexnet, 20:17:59 - <Killarny> implying that there is a perfect and complete plexnet somewhere? 20:18:14 - <jeffarch> somewhere in our future ;) 20:19:02 - <oierw> some time from now I'm going to have to read something showing what exactly the plexnet can and cannot do. i'm still stuck with the original plex in my head 20:20:05 - <oierw> i understand some of the differences, but i'm not sure exactly how many there are 20:20:26 - <Killarny> devplan doesn't lay out exactly what the social/technological foundations necessary for the 3-month sprint in Morocco are 20:24:31 - <tav> hmz, true 20:25:34 - <tav> the devplan needs elaboration i guess 20:25:45 - <Killarny> I like it being straight to the point 20:25:56 - <Killarny> but maybe just some *short* explanations in some places
Corrections
- <possumman> What's with the final release-date slippage? From a couple days ago: 08:08:47 - <possumman> (15:43:06) tav: possumman: does october 2007 seem good to you? 08:08:53 - <possumman> (15:43:29) possumman: Yes, I'll be happy if I know I can release my code by then. 08:08:53 - <possumman> (15:44:32) tav: possumman: cool. is that good with everyone? 08:08:53 - <possumman> Now tav's talking December 25 2007? 08:09:08 - <jeffarch> http://svn.espnow.net/kalati/kore/project/kalati/devplan.html says xmas 2007 08:10:57 - <jeffarch> hopefully sooner, but like I've said, it would make a nice xmas present to the world 08:11:29 - <jeffarch> as opposed to a halloween trick-or-treat ;) 08:11:57 - <jeffarch> and as I look thru the shailas, I don't see mention of an agreement to change the date 08:16:21 - <tav> hmz 08:18:51 - <tav> sorry, my mistake 08:18:57 - <tav> for some reason xmas 2007 was in my head -- rereading the logs it was october 2007 08:19:14 - * tav slaps self 08:19:50 - <jeffarch> aha! 08:21:15 - <jeffarch> not tav's fault 08:21:19 - <jeffarch> <oierw> how about adding "the code will default to public domain on december 25, 2007" 08:21:27 - <jeffarch> http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp-core/2006/06/22#20-08-38 08:21:37 - <tav> hmz 08:21:42 - <tav> ah 08:21:58 - <tav> ehm 08:22:13 - <tav> that was after i wrote devplan 08:22:21 - <tav> so, he got the date off of devplan 08:22:30 - <jeffarch> oh, ok 08:23:22 - <jeffarch> right you are 08:24:39 - <jeffarch> the logs are starting to blend together ;) 08:25:42 - <jeffarch> in my head, at least 08:25:50 - <possumman> Ah, all is good with the date then, I see. We just have try to focus on ensuring that the Kalati release is a "treat" rather than a "trick". 08:40:21 - <thruflo> hey tav 08:40:24 - <thruflo> def can't do mtg? 08:40:30 - <tav> oh, now you get online 08:41:18 - <tav> twat 08:41:21 - <thruflo> i beg your pardon 08:41:29 - <thruflo> been setting up green.tv germany 08:41:48 - <thruflo> if you don't mind 08:41:56 - <tav> hanging out in the pub all afternoon is what i heard 08:41:59 - <thruflo> true 08:42:33 - <tav> did the guy and girl from the program... thingy get there then? 08:42:40 - <thruflo> the germans? 08:43:01 - <tav> yeah 08:43:04 - <thruflo> yup, they're v. cool, ie: nice people 08:43:17 - <tav> cool 08:43:22 - <thruflo> and they're well up for a german version 08:43:31 - <thruflo> ie: to manage the production / sourcing of german content 08:43:45 - <tav> they up for paying for the community localisation system? ;p 08:43:52 - <thruflo> and to manage the german translation / user interface 08:44:00 - <thruflo> they're certainly up for a license :) 08:44:15 - <tav> woo! ;p 08:44:38 - <thruflo> and I've been pitching the community localization like it's going out of fashion 08:44:51 - <tav> cool cool, figured you'd be 08:45:19 - <tav> nice work 08:45:21 - <thruflo> anyway, let me call psychopedia paul - can I suggest another time? 08:45:23 - <tav> today? 7pm 08:46:17 - <thruflo> dring dring 08:46:26 - <thruflo> (that's me on the phone) 08:46:38 - <tav> possumman: fix 08:47:30 - <xena> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/changeset/18 by tav (2 changed) in kore/project/kalati/ -- 'ooops. got the date wrong. thanks possumman. added some legalese too.' -- devplan.html (U) 08:47:30 - <tav> possumman: fixed even 08:47:33 - <tav> possumman: http://svn.espnow.net/kalati/kore/project/kalati/devplan.html#intellectual-property -- is that satisfactory? 08:48:33
- <tav> wooo! thanks for that email sbp 09:38:34 - <sbp> you're welcome! 09:38:41 - <tav> clarifies a lot of issues 09:38:42 - <sbp> hope it solidif... right 09:38:48 - <jeffarch> brings up questions that need to be answered 09:51:06 - <GReaper> oh, tav 09:51:24 - <GReaper> one thing i realised earlier 09:51:28 - <GReaper> changing projects.espnow.net to projects.espnow.com kinda means the wildcard * .espnow.net won't match it :p 09:51:54 - <tav> GReaper: ehm 09:52:38 - <tav> GReaper: i guess just take the wildcard away? 09:52:56 - <GReaper> however 09:54:43 - <GReaper> it might be okay infact, don't worry just yet 09:55:35 - <tav> why's the wildcard needed now btw? 09:55:57 - <GReaper> SSL can only use a single certificate 09:57:04 - <GReaper> if i connect to 88.198.247.130:443, SSL will say it's secure.espnow.net 09:57:54 - <tav> right ... 09:58:20 - <GReaper> browsers get upset when it connects to someothername.com, and SSL says something else 09:58:31 - <sbp> jeffarch: like what? feel free to respond in the thread, especially 09:58:57 - <jeffarch> jsut the ones you ask ;p 09:59:47 - <sbp> heh, heh 10:00:10 - <GReaper> but, infact, SubjAltNames *should* work okay 10:00:36 - <jeffarch> the "i'm not sure" part and the "I have no idea" part :) 10:00:56 - <sbp> one of which has just been answered, it seems 10:01:43 - <sbp> (the "I have no idea" part) 10:02:11 - <tav> oh, didn't i answer it all? 10:04:36 - <sbp> "I'm not sure what constitutes a contribution to the project" is the outstanding bit 10:04:58 - <tav> oh, svn commit 10:05:07 - <tav> nothing else is tangible in that way ? 10:05:26 - <tav> as far as ipr is concerned ? 10:05:37 - * jeffarch notices inbox 10:05:40 - <sbp> okay, so my guess there was right then 10:06:04 - <jeffarch> cool 10:06:14 - <sbp> svn.espnow.net/kalati/kore/project/kalati 10:06:21 - <tav> yeah, thus why i just ignored that bit and moved on 10:06:21
[Subversion]
- <tav> GReaper: woo! we can do the svn post commit thingie via xena 11:40:56 - <xena> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/changeset/1 by tav (5 added) in / -- 'hello world' -- readme.txt (A) - <tav> okay, to try a really large commit, which would normally be unusual 13:04:23 - <xena> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/changeset/4 by tav (456 added) in 73 subdirs of kore/ -- 'some scant and inconsistent documentation' -- resume.pdf (A), resume.pdf (A), resume.pdf (A), index.txt (A), esp-notes.html (A), how_to_join_esp.txt (A), quotes.txt (A), resume.doc (A), 24days.png (A), aaken.ori.png (A) 13:04:33 - <tav> that's good enough isn't it ? 13:04:54 - <tav> that many filenames 13:05:00 - <tav> it truncates so as to not take up too much space with the filenames -- since it might even be completely useless 13:05:45 - <jeffarch> not too bad 13:05:46 - <GReaper> hence, the reason is sufficient? :p 13:06:25 - <GReaper> someone can click the link to see the details 13:06:49 - <tav> i'm indifferent on this issue -- sbp/jeffarch: your thoughts ? 13:08:22 - <tav> or anyone else for that matter ... 13:09:08 - <tav> whether in agreement or disagreement with GReaper ... come forth! 13:09:23 - <jeffarch> hm 13:12:41 - <jeffarch> if it's one file, I think showing the name is appropriate 13:13:09 - <GReaper> good idea 13:14:38 - <GReaper> anything more than 1 file, just say X files 13:15:06 - <jeffarch> ya...that'd prompt folks to click the link for details 13:17:21 - <tav> cool 13:19:31 - <xena> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/changeset/4 by tav (456 added) in 73 subdirs of kore/ -- 'some scant and inconsistent documentation' -- resume.pdf (A) 13:19:31 - <tav> is that okay? 13:19:49
- <tav> the code is on the subversion repository -- http://svn.espnow.net/kalati 15:35:25 - <sbp> is that URI permanent? 15:35:49 - <tav> yes 15:35:56 - <sbp> how much data is under that tree? 15:36:05 - <sbp> and on what machine? 15:36:15 - <tav> a). it's a repository, not a tree 15:36:47 - <tav> b). doing a du -- please wait 15:36:56 - <tav> c). why does the machine matter? ;p 15:37:06 - <tav> w.r.t. (b), bear in mind that i have a shit file system 15:37:59 - <sbp> a) in URI terms, one can't know the backend of a particular address 15:38:10 - <sbp> b) thanks 15:38:13 - <sbp> c) because it'd be nice to verify b) myself :-) 15:38:26 - <tav> *nod* @ (a) 15:38:37 - <tav> -- 15:38:54 - <tav> tav@temp:~$ ls /var/svn/ 15:38:56 - <tav> authz kalati svn 15:38:56 - <tav> -- 15:38:56 - <sbp> but actually, repo would be more accurate since I'm wondering how big a checkout will be 15:39:31 - <tav> server repo is: 15:39:47 - <tav> -- 15:39:48 - <tav> tav@temp:/var/svn/kalati$ du -s 15:39:49 - <tav> 43616 . 15:39:49 - <tav> -- 15:39:49 - <tav> my checkout is: 15:39:58 - <tav> -- 15:39:59 - <tav> [tav@arkady:/var/kalati]$ du -cs 15:40:00 - <tav> 287716 . 15:40:00 - <tav> -- 15:40:01 - <tav> but, that has a). shit filesystem and b). some extra files in the images directory 15:40:37 - <tav> i didn't check in my pr0n collection 15:40:47 - <sbp> hehe 15:40:50
- <oierw> i'm up to ~1:30... here's an idea though 19:37:08 - <oierw> at the moment, it's "if there's a file changed, show the file name. if it's multiple files, show X files" -- what about that and people can setup xena to give them a - breakdown of the changes since they last asked 19:38:09 - <oierw> keep people on irc and you can set it up to ask automatically and keep completely updated 19:38:23 - <oierw> *shrug*
- <sbp> oh right. I did svn cleanup. trying svn update again 09:11:05 - <sbp> sent email 09:13:29 - <sbp> Updated to revision 18. 09:13:33 - <sbp> sweet, it worked 09:13:36 - <sbp> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/changeset/19 09:20:35 - <xena> http://projects.espnow.com/kalati/changeset/19 by sbp (2 added) in 2 subdirs of sandbox/ -- 'Just testing checkin.\n' -- test.txt (A) 09:20:35 - <sbp> heh, heh 09:20:38 - <sbp> she's polling? 09:20:59 - <tav> nope 09:34:33 - <tav> ehm, kinda i guess 09:34:59 - <tav> every time something happens on irc, she tells a web server about it 09:35:24 - <tav> the web server can then tell her things back 09:35:37 - <tav> the post commit script tells the web server about commits 09:35:59 - <tav> heh, i wouldn't believe ;p 09:36:44 - <sbp> aha 09:38:21
[LOCALIZATION]
[Transparency]
This first section relates to salfield
- <tav> jhb: sorry, guess only old espians know about this distinction. we have 2 channels #esp and #esp-core. esp is for the general public + friends of esp; esp-core is for core espians 05:07:27 - <jhb> mmm, maybe it should say something like: by invitation only 05:08:29 - <tav> we initially made esp-core +s +i and all those other things like password protected, but that was considered too much of a hassle as we could deal with anyone who - stumbled here fairly easily 05:08:43 - <jhb> and isn't there some way to technical close the channel? 05:08:50 - <tav> good idea 05:08:52 - <tav> jhb: see comment above 05:09:13 - <jhb> ok 05:09:18 - <jhb> why is the log public then? 05:09:41 - <tav> haven't got around to closing it yet -- will do at some point -- not the top priority atm 05:10:12 - * jhb scratches his head 05:10:25 - <tav> ? 05:10:45 - <jhb> thing its funny that it has top priority to ask people to leave, but low priority to prevent the public from reading 05:11:11 - <jhb> to me it sounds a bit like it is about act of kicking, which surely is not intended. 05:12:08 - <jhb> but thx for elaborating 05:13:07 - <tav> well, people being here is in yer face like... ;p 05:13:13 - <jhb> ? 05:13:22 - <tav> and, btw, privmsg'ing people to leave is considered decent irc etiquette 05:13:38 - <jhb> ok 05:14:11 - <tav> sorry, my bad in the first place, i shouldn't have sent out a mass email asking people to come here 05:14:13 - <jhb> got that point 05:14:14
- This part refers to wybo in #esp http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp/2006/06/22#14-20-43 - there's actually some FAQ-quality content there
- <talonlzr> tav: Guy is a troll. 14:42:09 - <talonlzr> No need to feed it ;P 14:42:17 - <tav> talonlzr: actually, i think he means well 14:42:24 - <talonlzr> me and jeffarch fought it the other night ;P 14:42:28 - <talonlzr> Fair enough. 14:42:42 - <tav> i'd be in a similar situation if i were him 14:42:43 - <tav> oh, hmz 14:42:45 - <tav> same guy ? 14:42:48 - <jeffarch> at least he's written code himself 14:42:50 - <talonlzr> definately. 14:42:52 - <talonlzr> Well, the guy is probably all ok. 14:43:09 - <jeffarch> as opposed to just philosophy 14:43:12 - <talonlzr> But his "open source the world!" ideas doesn't work very well for someone trying to make greater things happen. 14:43:35 - <talonlzr> not in a market where open source CMSes are avail. on every street corner. 14:43:47 - <talonlzr> They way I see us, he is putting somewhere we have no plans of being. 14:44:28 - <talonlzr> as a competitor in the opensource CMS market. 14:44:46 - <GReaper> where the hell are the people in #esp coming from? 14:44:54 - <talonlzr> Fair enough, our platform technology might be open when we have something worthwile working for us 14:45:08 - <jeffarch> wybo came from that discussion tav had me fill-in for him at...can't remember the name 14:45:28 - <talonlzr> but the road there is nowhere NEAR put in stone, and there will be many bumps in it as well before we can satisfy the worlds wybos ;P 14:45:59 - <jeffarch> well put :) 14:46:28 - <talonlzr> imho, he is here a year early ;P 14:47:09 - <talonlzr> Had I been a coldhearted BOFH, I'd throw him out and give him a return ticket next june ;P 14:47:32 - <jeffarch> LOL 14:47:50 - <tav> hmz, guys, seriously, we shouldn't be so towards people coming in 14:51:14 - <tav> these guys can potentially be very good friends of ours 14:52:04 - <jeffarch> "we don't waste time discussing the architecture with external entities whilst still in the early development stage" 14:52:38 - <talonlzr> Fair enough, give the guy a chance, then. 14:52:50 - <talonlzr> heh, I liked jeffarch's 12-year-old-kinds-whining-"AREWETHEREYET?!"-fromthe-backseat-comparision ;P 14:58:08 - <talonlzr> I wonder how often he'll get on, and ask for the source over the next 12 months ;P 14:58:28 - <talonlzr> Oh well. Sorry for not being any more understanding, but I deal with customers on a day-to-day-basis, like a flock of sheep. 14:59:21 - <talonlzr> I like to keep insiders and "other people" in separate herds. 14:59:38 - <talonlzr> That generates a little ... tension 14:59:59 - <talonlzr> towards people asking too many questions while one has just begun development on a new, large project. 15:00:17 - <talonlzr> Its a littlebit like when sales dept. is selling something that hasn't been made yet, and customers start calling, asking when it will be made available for purchase. 15:00:44 - <talonlzr> I usually xfer those calls to someone other than myself. 15:01:01 - <tav> hmz 15:02:21 - <jeffarch> flinging that "corruption" word around 15:02:59 - <jeffarch> it's difficult for even insiders to understand the scale of what we're working on :) 15:05:32 - <sbp> bwahaha, what's going on here 15:15:51 - <sbp> is wybo illegale? 15:15:54 - <jeffarch> back 15:15:55 - <jeffarch> no, not the same person 15:16:10 - <sbp> <wybo> Phrase 4 however you want... It still comes down to closedness and corruption... 15:17:31 - <sbp> hahaha, this guy is fucking unreal 15:17:36 - <sbp> awesome 15:17:37 - <tav> hmz, sbp 15:28:06 - <tav> can you check out the code instead of exploring wybo pls ? 15:28:27 - <sbp> heh. which code? 15:30:41 - <tav> the shit in svn 15:30:53 - <sbp> oh yeah, I should check it out indeed 15:31:14 - <sbp> how much of it is there? 15:31:20 - <tav> all i think 15:31:28
And then we have illegale on #esp http://openideaproject.org/irclogs/browse/esp/2006/06/23#03-30-53
[3ware]
[butterfly.tv]
[Shaila]
- <jeffarch> Some things I'd like to point out about the shailas 07:48:23 - <jeffarch> In trac, they are all wikis. To me, that means they aren't static documents, and would be flattered by any collaborative editing that happens there. 07:50:12 - <jeffarch> I'd even be willing to make annotations to them if they were in email/newsgroup/irc. 07:52:01 - <jeffarch> Could be afterthoughts about something discussed, tag games/sections, reStructuredText formatting, etc. 07:53:38 - <jeffarch> My motivation behind this whole thing is to encourage the development of better tools, by displaying an attempt do do it by hand. ;) 07:56:36 - <jeffarch> I intend to fill in holes in documentation and create new documentation (like an FAQ) with what's been discussed in irc. 08:06:40
[World Cup]
[Other]
- <GReaper> going to change things slightly :p 11:23:32 - <GReaper> don't panic 11:23:39 - <tav> k 11:23:41 - * tav grabs a towel 11:23:45
- <sbp> I'd better free up some space first anyway 15:41:08 - <tav> aha 15:41:13 - <tav> hmz, we need to get everyone a new laptop it seems 15:41:25 - <GReaper> urm 15:41:48 - <tav> GReaper: no new laptop for me? *sob* 15:42:32 - <tav> GReaper: fixed the redirect thing btw ? 15:42:57 - <GReaper> ages ago 15:43:01 - <tav> wb =) 15:43:04 - <jeffarch> tav needs a new irc client before he needs a new laptop ;p 15:43:20 - <GReaper> i've been back ages :p 15:43:20 - <tav> -- 15:43:23 - <tav> [tav@arkady:/var/kalati/sandbox]$ svn up 15:43:24 - <tav> svn: REPORT request failed on '/.*/.*/kalati/!svn/vcc/default' 15:43:24 - <tav> svn: 15:43:24 - <tav> Unusable URI: it does not refer to this repository 15:43:24 - <GReaper> you're slow today 15:43:25 - <tav> -- 15:43:27 - <tav> jeffarch: heh 15:43:43 - <GReaper> use hidden windows for irssi 15:43:53 - <tav> i do use hidden windows 15:44:01 - <sbp> Parkinson's Law I guess 15:44:06 - <tav> i've hidden 31 of them! 15:44:06
- <tav> so, ehm sorry guys and girls at the guardian/nokia/21west/adidas/telephony-japan, our project lead couldn't get hold of the source code... 17:10:56
- <GReaper> any last requests before i sleep? 18:50:45 - <jeffarch> winning lottery numbers 18:51:17 - <jeffarch> ;) 18:51:44 - <tav> oh, yes please 18:51:52 - <tav> same as for jeffarch pls 18:51:59 - <GReaper> apparently /dev/random can give winning lottery numbers 18:52:07 - <GReaper> (sadly it gives a lot of other numbers too) 18:52:20
- <possumman> Hmz. Python 2.5-alpha is sure to be buggy. Aren't we supposed to be making a production release product for July? 11:16:52 - <possumman> s/alpha/beta/ 11:17:28 - <sbp> I've not had problems with Python betas in the past 11:18:12 - <possumman> You've used them in heavy-usage situations, etc? 11:18:37 - <sbp> I do almost everything I do compsci-wise in Python :-) 11:18:59 - <possumman> okay :-) 11:19:08 - <sbp> the biggest problem is that the rest of the world is always so far behind 11:19:37 - <sbp> for example, I remember working on a lot of python2.3 code when it came out back in 2003, but because nobody had packages for it yet, nobody would use my code. fair enough, I suppose 11:20:14 - <possumman> yeah, but I suppose we can get certain clients to install python version 2.5. 11:20:29 - <sbp> but it bugs me that, for example, I believe Debian *still* uses Python 2.3 as its latest package 11:20:30 - <sbp> even in debian unstable 11:20:35 - <sbp> right. and it's not particularly hard, which is the annoying thing 11:20:47 - <sbp> usually when you're installing locally, you have to worry about shit going wrong and dependencies and so on 11:20:59 - <sbp> but Python is almost bulletproof in that regard. python betas are the quality of most people's stable major version releases, seriously 11:21:22 - <sbp> plus you can install python2.5 as an alternative installation 11:21:35 - <sbp> which means it won't mess with your python binary, only installing "python2.5" 11:21:48 - <sbp> so basically, what I'm doing is: 11:22:02 - <sbp> ./configure --enable-unicode=ucs2 && make && make altinstall 11:22:19 - <sbp> so that I can run crazy tav things 11:22:30 - <sbp> but by default, my python will still be 2.4.3 or such 11:22:39 - <sbp> so we'll be able to see what works in 2.4 and what requires 2.5 11:22:57 - <sbp> and judge what really needs 2.5 features and what doesn't based on that 11:23:09
- <sbp> so how many people are actually coding this? 15:14:34 - * talonlzr working on the backend automated encoding platform 15:15:11 - <jeffarch> everybody but me? 15:15:13 - <talonlzr> deltab / GReaper are friendly server BOFHs ;P 15:15:30 - <sbp> deltab doesn't have any time to work on it 15:15:40 - <sbp> you I knew about, tav too 15:15:46 - <GReaper> i'm friendly?! 15:15:47 - <sbp> possumman seems to be interested 15:15:52 - <talonlzr> GReaper: Hey, at least you got 'BOFH' ;P 15:16:01 - <talonlzr> be happy. 15:16:04 - <sbp> GReaper: you shall be friendly or you shall pay the cake shaped consequences 15:16:06 - <talonlzr> and friendly ;P 15:16:07 - <GReaper> i'm not as bad as i used to be 15:16:10 - <GReaper> such as, the mysql socket is changing, tough shit if you don't like it 15:16:33 - <sbp> heh, heh 15:16:41 - <talonlzr> I remember that one. 15:16:55 - <talonlzr> Nothing worked. 15:17:07 - <GReaper> it was the slackware box of doom 15:17:16 - <talonlzr> ;P 15:17:21 - <GReaper> oooh, a new version of apache 15:17:27 - <GReaper> lets compile it!! 15:17:31 - <GReaper> :p
[Development Summary]
- <sbp> I'm a bit concerned about how many people will be developing the code 10:51:24 - <sbp> hence http://groups.google.com/group/esp/msg/c2dad1d7eab438be 10:51:42 - <sbp> will be nice to see how many people will put their names in 10:51:50 - <jeffarch> sbp: procedure for those without access to 'htpasswd'? 11:02:11 - <sbp> lose hard 11:02:49 - <sbp> preferably, install apache 11:03:08 - <sbp> if not, do what I did: try on a box which does have apache 11:03:22 - <sbp> if not, so far people have emailed passwords to tav and he has generated the htpasswd string 11:03:39 - <sbp> I can also do the same for people 11:03:50 - <sbp> but it's not a particularly secure method 11:03:55 - <GReaper> or, just give me the SSH key first 11:04:09 - <sbp> ah yes, then use htpasswd on qin 11:04:17 - <GReaper> and use htpasswd on qin when you get the account 11:04:20 - <jeffarch> good idea 11:04:31 - <sbp> now, if you haven't got ssh... 11:04:46 - <sbp> :-) 11:04:48 - <GReaper> putty can generate keys 11:04:59 - <sbp> heh 11:05:04 - <GReaper> so theres no excuse there :p
- <sbp> $ python2.5 -V 11:38:38 - <sbp> Python 2.5b1 11:38:38 - <tav> woo! 11:43:13 - <sbp> okay, symlinked python.recent to it... 11:44:00 - <sbp> $ PATH=$PATH:../../../trunk/application/core pyutil rst2html -t ../../template/current.pyxt -o devplan-test.html devplan.txt 11:45:17 - <sbp> Traceback (most recent call last): 11:45:17 - <sbp> File "../../../trunk/application/core/pyutil", line 194, in <module> 11:45:23 - <sbp> import redpill 11:45:23 - <sbp> ImportError: No module named redpill 11:45:23 - <tav> hmz, you might have to put source/python/app into your python path 11:46:40 - <tav> oh yeah, source source/shell/kalati.sh 11:47:13 - <sbp> $ find -name kalati.sh 11:48:43 - <sbp> [no output yet, still searching...] 11:48:49 - <sbp> ah, trunk/source/shell/kalati.sh 11:48:56 - <sbp> $ PYTHONPATH=../../trunk/source/python/app PATH=$PATH:../../../trunk/application/core pyutil rst2html -t ../../template/current.pyxt -o devplan-test.html devplan.txt 11:52:36 - <sbp> ImportError: No module named redpill 11:52:39 - <tav> -- 11:53:15 - <tav> <tav> hmz, you might have to put source/python/app into your python path 11:53:20 - <tav> 00 11:53:21 - <tav> -- 11:53:23 - <sbp> which I did 11:54:01 - <sbp> -> PYTHONPATH=../../trunk/source/python/app <- 11:54:03 - <tav> hmz 11:54:45 - <tav> soz 11:54:48 - <tav> got to run now unfortunately -- be back in a few hours 11:54:58
[edit]
TTLY
- This Time Last Year - a look at the #esp logs from a year ago, just for fun
In the "tav's been purgging lately" dept...
- → nsh joined 12:16:41 - <nsh> .w flush 12:25:07 - <phenny> flush 1. the period of greatest prosperity or productivity 12:25:12 - <phenny> flush 2. a rosy color (especially in the cheeks) taken as a sign of good health 12:25:16 - <phenny> flush 3. sudden brief sensation of heat (associated with menopause and some mental disorders) [...] 12:25:20 - ← nsh left 12:40:55
- <jeffarch> I'm in Denver taking a little vacation before heading on the road again on Saturday 15:01:36
- <nsh> tav was about yesterday, but i don't know if he said anything but "peeka" :-) 15:03:50
- <jeffarch|afk> oierw? 15:51:04 - <Omni|Work> oierw, 15:51:34 - <Omni|Work> oierw; 15:51:36 - <Omni|Work> oierw;' 15:51:37 - <Omni|Work> oierw" 15:51:43 - * Omni|Work searches for just the right punctuation to trail the magnificent "oierw". 15:52:15 - <jeffarch|afk> heh 15:52:31 - <Omni|Work> Maybe it should preceed! $oierw
